Social Audio – Perpetual Postdoc, Breaking the Cycle

Adam Smith:

Thank you for tuning into this spaces’ discussion for Dementia Researcher. I’m Adam Smith. I’m the program director at Dementia Researcher [inaudible 00:00:23] at University College London. And it’s my pleasure to be co-chairing today’s discussion with the fantastic Kamar Ameen-Ali. Kam, do you want to say hello and introduce yourself?

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah. Hopefully you can hear me now?

Adam Smith:

Yeah.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yes. Great. I had trouble with my mic there. Thanks, Adam. Hi, everyone. My name’s Kamar Ameen-Ali, and I’m a research associate at the University of Glasgow, where my research involves understanding brain injury as a risk factor for dementia, but I’m also a regular blogger for Dementia Researcher.

Adam Smith:

Wonderful. So, if you are just catching up on what we’re about, Dementia Researcher provides a supportive community for early career researchers, producing careers, content, and science news, and hopefully sportive content, publishing blogs, podcasts, curating jobs, events, and funding calls and more. Our overall aim being to attract more people to work in dementia research and support those who choose this career path to remain.

Adam Smith:

And we have wonderful partners in the NIHR Alzheimer’s Research UK Alzheimer’s Society. And we also work with some fantastic other partners, the Alzheimer’s Association, and race against dementia. It’s with those aims in mind that all this week we’ve been focusing on some of the challenges faced by postdocs, who, of course, are also early career researchers, but particularly in dealing with challenges of career progression, short term contracts, and transitioning into independence.

Adam Smith:

To round off this first week of focusing on this topic, I’m delight to be joined by four truly inspirational professors from different areas of dementia research. They’ve all been through the pain, navigated the maze, and we’re going to hear how they did it, and get some advice from them. So, it’s my pleasure to welcome Prof. Claire Surr, Prof. Tammaryn Lashley, Prof. Tara Spires-Jones, and Prof. Louise Serpell. So, Kam, over to you.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Thanks, Adam. Okay. Shall we start with some introductions? So, if you could briefly tell us who you are and what you do? And let’s start with something a bit fun. So, in an alternative reality, what would your career be, and why? So, let’s start with Tara.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Thanks, Kam. In an alternate reality, someone would pay me to read sci-fi novels. I don’t know who, but that would be my alternative career choice, top choice. Do you want my regular introduction as well?

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah, that would be good, but it’s great to have another sci-fi novel fan.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Yeah. So, in my normal reality, I’m professor of neurodegeneration, and the deputy director of The Center for Discovery Brain Sciences up here at the University of Edinburgh. And I’m a group leader in our UK Dementia Research Institute. And we study Alzheimer’s disease, and in particular, synaptic degeneration and synaptic resilience.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Thanks, Tara. Should we have an introduction from Claire?

Professor Claire Surr:

Hi, Kam. Hi, everyone. I’m Claire Surr, and I’m professor of dementia studies. I’m the director of the Center for Dementia Research at Leads Beckett University. So, the research that we do is dementia care and services-focused research around a range of different areas. My main interest is particularly around dementia, education and training and workforce development, and also psychosocial interventions, and how we can use them to improve informal care settings.

Professor Claire Surr:

In an alternate reality, I think I would’ve loved to have been an archeologist, and probably spending a lot of time in fields on my hands and knee with a trowel in hand and a paint brush, probably. So, that would be …

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

That sounds like a very exciting alternate career. I’m not sure if Louise, she’s got access to speak yet. So, should we move on to Tammaryn’ s introduction?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah. Thanks, Kam, and hi, everybody. My name is Tammaryn Lashley. I’m professor of neuroscience at UCL, director of research at Queens Square Brain Bank. And the focus of my research is to study the post-mortem human brains, with a particular interest into the frontal temporal dementia, looking for clues of how these diseases actually take hold in the brains themselves. So, that’s my actual reality.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

In my alternate reality, in hindsight of different events throughout my life, I would have probably chosen a career path in a special needs education, and leveling up the education for all those that find it difficult to access a normal career, the normal education we provide in the country. So, that would be my alternate reality.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Thank you, Tammaryn. Louise, are you able to speak at the moment or is there no access yet?

Adam Smith:

I’ve just sent Louise an email, and I have invited her, but I’ll keep trying.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Okay, no worries. We’ll move on to the first question then, and we’ll get an introduction from Louise when she’s able to access her microphone. So, now that we know who you all are and what you do, so you’re all pretty amazing individuals who made the 1% of the 1%, and you made it to professor. So, could you tell us a bit about your path to where you are now, and touch on whether you always planned to have a career in academia, or if you spent time working outside of academia since obtaining your PhD. So, let’s start with Claire.

Professor Claire Surr:

So, I suppose I knew when I was at university that I wanted something to do with research, but I didn’t really know you could really have a career in it. I don’t think I imagined being an academic at that point. And when I finished my undergraduate degree, I had a place to do a PGC to qualify to be a teacher. So, I think I’ve taken Tammaryn’ s alternate career, and I was actually going to do English and Special Educational Needs. Then, I got the opportunity that a PhD studentship came up in my department with Prof. Tom Kitwood, who had been my psychology lecturer and my dissertation supervisor at undergraduate level.

Professor Claire Surr:

Then, I was fortunate to get that. And I’ve never looked back, really. I think at one point I did want to be a researcher working on television programs like Horizons and things … I think I’ve always thought about doing some research, but I don’t think ever thought I could be the person doing the research they might put on a TV program like Horizons. And I haven’t really spent any time working outside of academia. I’ve followed a very traditional academic career route, really. So, I haven’t done that.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, it’s almost as if you were drawn to research but didn’t necessarily plan for a career in academia, which is quite interesting because it’s something that I hear quite a lot that it’s not something that people necessarily plan but they just follow what they’re interested in, and that’s the path that they end up going down. Tammaryn, how about you, can you tell us a bit about your path to where you are now?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah, sure. So, I didn’t really plan to set out in academia either. So, when I was doing my undergrad, I had to focus … I wanted to do some forensic science career, and as we know, it’s quite difficult to set out in that career. So, I actually got a job as a research technician at the National Institute of Medical Research in Mill Hill, just to get lab experience. I didn’t do too great in my undergraduate, so the opportunity of going directly into a PhD wasn’t there at that time.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I thought, well, let me go and get a research technician position if I can, which I was successful in doing, to get the lab experience, see whether I liked working in the lab. So, I worked there for three years on spinal cord regeneration, and then, obviously, as we all know, grant funding comes to an end, and I needed to look for another position.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

And I moved to the Institute of Neurology, again, as a research technician for one of the pathologists, Prof. [Ravez 00:09:29], who worked there at the time. And again, I was looking for PhD positions, but people just laughed at my undergrad results, and I thought, well, okay, maybe a PhD is not for me. So, I was quite happy working as a technician. Then, it was actually Prof. Ravez that turned around and said, “Look, while you’re doing the work anyway, we might as well register you for a PhD.”

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I did do that, and took my PhD part-time whilst I was running the routine histology for the brain bank at the time. Then, completed my PhD, thought about more projects with Prof. Ravez, did a few postdocs, and the rest is history, really. So, I never really set out to be where I am. And I don’t really think I chose dementia research, to be honest. I just started in there and never left, basically.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

That’s really interesting, because similarly, you also didn’t plan to have a career in academia, but I know that you spent most of your career at UCL, and you’ve just taken the opportunities that have come your way and followed what you’re interested in as well?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah. I think that helps if you’re enjoying what you’re doing, then I think you put more effort, and not necessarily work harder at it, but I think things come easier if you are enjoying it.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah, definitely. I feel sometimes it’s easier to be motivated, especially in this type of career, if what you’re doing is what you’re really interested in and it’s your passion. How about Tara? I know that Louise has been able to join us now, but we’ll speak with Tara first, and then we’ll get an introduction from Louise. So, Tara, can you tell us a bit about your path?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Yeah, sure. So, I’m from a very small town in Texas, and I went to undergraduate at the University of Texas in Austin. And to say I was planning a career in academia, it was definitely not. I wanted to be a scientist, but I didn’t really know at all what that meant. I had no idea even what a PhD was really when I started. So, after undergraduate school, I did a year abroad. During my undergrad, I did a year abroad in France, in Toulouse, and that’s where I met my now partner, and went back to Texas to finish undergrad, and then just told all my advisors that I was going to go to Oxford for PhD work [because 00:11:49] that’s where my partner was living. And they all laughed at me and said, ” How are you going to pay for it?”

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

And I got a couple of scholarships, and did move to Oxford, and was very lucky to have some support in that from my PhD mentor, Colin Blakemore. And after PhD, I had chatted with a couple of people during the PhD at various meetings and seminars, and heard about some fantastic work going on in Boston. So, I went over to interview with John Hardy, and ended up, while I was there, falling in love with another PI there, and his microscopes. So, I ended up meeting my postdoc mentor, Brad Hyman, who was also incredibly supportive.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Stayed there for postdoc for two years, and then Brad recruited me as a junior faculty member. So, I ended up being in Boston for nine years before coming to Edinburgh to bring the group here.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, you’ve had some pretty big international moves then, which is quite different to Tammaryn who spent most of her career at UCL. Should we get an introduction from Louise? So, Louise, our first question was, if you could tell us a bit about who you are and what you do, and also, as an additional question, in an alternate reality, what would your career be and why?

Professor Louise Serpell:

Yeah. Thank you very much. I’m sorry to have been delayed. It was complicated for me. So, I’m a professor of biochemistry, really, but director of neuroscience at the University of Sussex. And my main work really is looking at protein misfolding and how it’s involved in Alzheimer’s disease and other neurodegenerative diseases. And I had a bit of time to think while everyone else was talking about what they would’ve done instead. And I always find it very difficult to think what else I would’ve done.

Professor Louise Serpell:

But I think I’d quite like to have been roaming through the undergrowth in the jungle, looking at animals and watching monkeys and looking at animal behavior, if I’d had maybe an alternative opportunity. So, I think that’s what I would’ve done. But it leads onto the other question you were asking about our career trajectories. And just, in a way, one of the things that I often think is, I carried on being a research scientist because I couldn’t think what else I would do, which probably isn’t a great way of strategically thinking about your career, but it is probably quite true that that’s what I did. I enjoy what I do, and I couldn’t quite think of making the effort to go in a different direction.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

I feel that’s a common theme that’s coming across is that you all really enjoy what you’re doing and you’re really passionate about what you’re doing. And you see that as a key necessity in order to carry on in this career is to have that passion and have that interest in what you are doing. So, I’ll move on to the next question. So, now that we know how each of you got to where you are now, do any of you feel you ever got stuck at any particular stage in your career? And if so, what happened to help you get out of that? So, Tammaryn, let’s start with you first.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah, a good question. I don’t feel I got particularly stuck at any part throughout the career because I didn’t really have an objective to go to the next stage of the career per se. So, looking back, probably the stickiest situation where I was about to run out of funding, was probably after my second, third postdoc, when Professor Ravez was retiring. So, I think it was a do-or-die situation whether I, as Louise said, think about something else that we could potentially do, or do I think of independent research ideas to take forward for a fellowship.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

And I actually spent quite a lot of time thinking, what are the transferable skills I could go and do something else, or if I don’t give it a go, to apply for my own independent funding, would I regret it later in life? And I thought, no, probably I would regret it if I don’t give it a go. If I don’t get it, that’s fine, I can go and do something else. I didn’t know what at the time. So, I stuck my neck out and applied for my first junior fellowship and was successful.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

I think that was probably the stage where I thought, is this for me or isn’t this for me? But as it turned out, I was successful in obtaining the junior fellowship. So, I don’t feel I was particularly stuck, but then, like I said, I didn’t really know that I was going to progress to a professor either. So, it’s a difficult question to answer.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah. So, when you were coming to facing the end of your funding and you were thinking about, potentially, what your transferable skills were, did you actually spend any time looking for options outside of academia, or did it not get to that stage yet?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

I did have a superficial look around. I wouldn’t say I looked at anything in depth. I think because I was trying to think of independent research ideas to take forward as well. It also coincided with my husband setting up his own business, so things were quite hectic at the time anyway. So, it was a panic do-or-die situation, really, I have to say. I did look, but nothing tickled my fancy to take on as a career after I’d been in the lab as a senior postdoc. So, I thought, no, I’ve got to give this independent career a go and see if my ideas for the research actually were worth pursuing. So, I’m glad AIUK thought they were worth pursuing, because I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you now.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah. Clearly it really worked out. And Louise, how about you? Did you ever feel that you got stuck at any particular stage in your career?

Professor Louise Serpell:

I feel I got stuck lots of times, actually. I think there were many times when I thought, “Gosh, what else can I do?” And difficulties with funding, rejections, knock-backs in papers and that sort of thing. I think that it’s a really difficult career because you are constantly being assessed and judged, and so, actually, it can be really difficult. And I’ve had times, during the time that I’ve been running a research group, when I’ve had no one in the lab, and then I’ve had lots of people in the lab, and back and forth.

Professor Louise Serpell:

And a little while ago at Sussex we did a career trajectory. And it was really interesting to look at those ups and downs, because I think it’s really important to share those difficulties that we’ve all gone through when things just don’t seem to be going as you hoped they would. Then, somehow, and it’s hard to say exactly how you come out of it, and you just get one good review or comment, or something that makes you feel a bit better about things, and then things start to go up again. But it definitely is a roller coaster, I would say.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah, I’ve often heard academia described as having many peaks and troughs, but for some of us it can often feel there are more troughs than there are peaks. Claire, how about you? Did you ever feel you got stuck at any stage in your career?

Professor Claire Surr:

Yeah, I think there were a couple of times where I felt, not stuck, because I think, similar to others, that I don’t think I’ve ever thought, “Oh, I must get to [inaudible 00:19:36] I must get to professor.” It wasn’t something that’s driven how I’ve worked. But I think you do think about progression. I think just because it’s, what’s the next challenge and what’s the new things that I want to be able to do. So, I think I did feel a bit stuck, I suppose, when I was a senior lecturer, because I wanted to be doing more research, but there was just a very high administration and teaching workload, and I’m sure many people who’ve worked in those positions feel exactly the same.

Professor Claire Surr:

And it’s really difficult to move forward, to think about how you would progress onto a reader and then a professor role when you know that you need to be doing more research and getting more publications to be able to do that. And it’s, where do I find the time to be able to do this, because there just doesn’t seem to be the hours in the day and the days in the week to be able to do that amongst the other demands. So, it’s just those sorts of managing time demands to be able to, I suppose, work on your CV and developing the areas that you feel you need to progress that can be the real challenge.

Professor Claire Surr:

And again, I think, I suppose I felt similar when I was in a reader position, it was still very difficult, and I still had quite a lot of managerial responsibilities and slightly reduced teaching, but again, it was still difficult to find the time, particularly for publications at that stage. But I think my move to Leeds Beckett and the post I have now, which is as a pure research professor role, and I do teach, but there’s not big teaching demands on me. I volunteer to do the teaching that I want to do, and I do quite a bit of it in PhD supervision, but I feel I’ve got a much more balanced role now.

Professor Claire Surr:

But you just have less control over how you spend your time when you are less senior. And it becomes more difficult, I think, to be able to work on those areas and spend time doing things that can help develop your CV if you’ve got big demands on your time to be doing other things. And I think learning the skills and teaching and nurturing is really important. And for us as researchers, we do need to be sharing our research with students and inspiring them to want to do research or to apply that. But I think it’s nice to be able to have a bit more of a balance sometimes, and that can be really difficult.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah. I was actually quite keen to ask you whether that was what prompted your move to Leeds Beckett from Bradford was to redistribute that balance from the admin and teaching to more research?

Professor Claire Surr:

Partly. I think I’ve been at Bradford for 16 years, and obviously it had been a great place to be, but I think I was ready for that new kind of challenge a bit. So, I was ready to do something new. And I saw the professorship post that come up, and there was quite a bit of freedom. They weren’t in a particular area. It wasn’t about setting up a new research center either. They were very open about … There were health professorships advertised, and they were open to people working in different areas of health.

Professor Claire Surr:

So, it felt like a good move for me, because there wasn’t a pressure also that we want you to set up a big research center when you arrive, and that we need you to be doing this, that and the other. It was just a chance, I think, to breathe and be a professor for a while. And the center’s naturally grown and happened as part of that rather than it being something I was tasked with at the start, which would’ve again diverted my time from being able to do things such as work on publications and grants. So, I think that’s really helped having a much more flexible role.

Adam Smith:

Can I chip in with a follow-up question? This applies to anybody. Obviously there’s always been this traditional view that moving around is good for your career. I think the only thing that somebody asked me the other day was, or told me the other day was that it helped how other people perceive them, that when they’d gone from doing a PhD and progressed in the same institution, everybody still thought of them as … It was Martin who talked about it. He still had colleagues that called him Young Rosser, because he’d been there forever, and whether moving to a new place allows you to fill the shoes of that senior position and be perceived in that way a bit more? I don’t know if anybody has a comment on that.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah. If I could comment on that, because I actually asked Martin Rosser for advice when I was applying for my own fellowship. So, obviously I’ve been at UCL for 23 years this year. So, I think it actually depends what discipline you work in, and what techniques you want to learn moving forward. Obviously my research is based on post-mortem human brain, so I couldn’t really set up another brain bank with over 2000 brains by myself elsewhere. So, I think, as long as you can justify why you need to stay in the one place.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

And quite surprisingly, when I went round and asked advice from many of the senior professors at UCL at the time, a lot of them, to my surprise, hadn’t moved from UCL. They were all based at UCL from the beginning. But I definitely think it depends on your life circumstances as well. So, I’d got three young children. My husband had got his own business as well. So, it was difficult for us to move even somewhere else in the UK, let alone move countries.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I think if you can justify it why you need to stay in the one place, but obviously if you need to learn a technique and there’s an expert somewhere else at different university or a different country, then I think that justifies the move as well. So, I think it’s individual, really, on where you see your research progressing to. I don’t know what others think about that.

Adam Smith:

I can completely see that. Also, I think there was … We’ve done a survey recently in [inaudible 00:26:00], and what came up was, particularly in the UK and the US, when asked the question, did they feel they had to move there for the career, it was a much lower proportion of people that said they had, compared to those who responded who were in India and Brazil and parts of Africa, and felt that they had to move to progress their career. Sorry, Kam, by all means. I’ll shut up now.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

I know we’ve jumped onto the next question, but let’s-

Adam Smith:

Sorry.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

… Let’s let Tara answer the previous one first. So, Tara, just out of interest, did you feel you’ve got stuck at any particular stage in your career?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Yeah, definitely. I realized I didn’t really answer the part of the first question about, did I ever leave academia? And the answer is, no. I went from being a student and just never left the university. But in terms of getting stuck, definitely. The point that I will never forget is when my first child was born, and he was three months old, and you only get, technically, eight weeks off of maternity leave in the States, but my generous university let me have 12 weeks off. Then, I had to take him to nursery and go back to work, and I just didn’t think I could do it.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

So, I went to my mentor at the time. I was an instructor, but I was a very junior faculty member. And I went to Brad and said, “Look, I think I want to be an EM technician. I think I just want to sit in on an EM and select sections and take images, because then I can spend more time with my baby and I can work part-time, or I can just have, actually, a job that you leave there and only do when you’re there and not have to take it with you everywhere.”

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

And I’ll never forget what he said. He said, “Just don’t worry about it.” He said, “You’re brilliant. You will succeed in this job if you want to. Why don’t you come back three days a week and see how you feel, and then maybe come back four days a week and see how you feel.” And if he hadn’t had suggested that, I think I would have left. And I’m really glad I didn’t, because I think this is the best job ever.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

That’s a good point, because actually … So, you’ve mentioned that it was the supportive environment that really helped you to pursue that and to push through, and without that you might not have progressed in academia, you might not have pursued it. Would you say that that was the situation?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Oh yeah, for sure. I would have done something else. Would’ve tried to become a technician, or left academia, for sure, if I hadn’t had that support.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, would you have any particular advice that you’d give to anyone who might be currently transitioning to try and set up their own lab or to try and make that transition to independence? Do you think that perhaps the most important thing is to have that supportive environment, that support from more senior colleagues around them?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

That’s definitely a huge part of it, I think, to success or building your own network, even if it’s not within your institution. Like when I was new in Edinburgh, I was lucky enough to become a member of the FENS Kavli Network of Excellence, which is a group of people who are, at that stage, just setting up their own groups. And we were a hugely wonderful source of support for each other, reading each other’s grants and supporting each other and being there and answering questions and circulating invites for speaking and kind of thing. So, if you don’t have it locally, make your own support network, because otherwise, I think it’s practically impossible to get to the top in this field.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah, that’s really good advice. So, we were just touching on, earlier, about moving in order to have a successful career in academia. So, we know that many early career researchers, particularly, have been advised that to progress in academia, that they need to move to another lab or another institution after their PhD. And I feel this is particularly encouraged for those who wish to apply for fellowships. And it’s often some feedback that people get or some criticism that people get on their fellowship applications if they decide that they want to stay within the same lab as their PhD or within the same institution.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, I’m interested to know what your thoughts are on this. And do you think moving labs or institutions is necessary for career progression in academia, because I know that some of you have moved and some of you haven’t. So, Louise let’s start with you.

Professor Louise Serpell:

So, yes, I did move. So, after my PhD I went and spent 18 months working in Canada, at the University of Toronto. Then, I worked in Cambridge and then in Sussex. But I found that very helpful. And it was at a time of my life that it worked for me. I had my children after I’d been to Canada, and so it worked out well. But I would hope that maybe the insistence on people moving for fellowships and so on, will have declined a bit, because it really isn’t very inclusive, and it particularly affects women who maybe have reasons why they might not want to move on. And everybody, actually.

Professor Louise Serpell:

And I think we do all need to take into account that we’re not just scientists, that we’re also parts of a family and all of that, those aspects that we’re rounded people, that we have lives outside of academia that are really important. And we need to be happy in order to do our best work. So, I would rail against that insistence that you have to move in order to succeed, I think. I think that just isn’t very inclusive.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah. I think I agree with that, that having just general demands to move, it’s not a very inclusive policy, but it’s interesting that you did move within your career, but that the timing was really important for that. And I think, certainly, for early career researchers, that might be something that can be a benefit to them. And they’re perhaps more flexible at that stage in their career, but certainly the timing is important if they are going to move. Tara, so you’ve had some pretty big international moves in your career. Do you think that it’s something that is necessary for career progression?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Yeah, it’s a good question. I completely agree with Louise that it’s not inclusive as an unwritten or sometimes written policy that people should move. I personally am a bit of a wandering spirit, and so I’ve loved that aspect and the ability to go lots of places and see people. I think, at the moment, even though I agree it shouldn’t be, I think there’s still a strong drive to have people have some mobility in their careers, not just because of the way they are perceived locally, but because of the way you’re perceived externally.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

So, I had stayed in Boston for nine years, and when I was applying for my first grants in Edinburgh, even though I’d been running a group in Boston for seven of those years, I got told, “Well, you’re just Brad’s postdoc. So, I don’t see how you’re going to be getting independent funding.” So, I think that, practically, it’s still at least … Well, this was now a few years ago, but it might still be out there. But I think there are some clever ways people can try and get around this.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

So, someone who’s brilliant, who I work with, got around this because they had personal reasons to want to stay in certain geographical location and in their fellowship, they put in some secondments in other institutions. And what that shows is that you’re going to be working internationally. And it also gives you a bit of experience with another system. If you’re in the same university for your entire career, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. You just don’t [inaudible 00:33:17].

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

And in some ways it’s got to be much easier because you don’t have to figure out all these different systems, but I think it might help the perception, by grant panels, that you’re making the effort to learn different systems in different spaces and work internationally by collaborating. You can maybe highlight that in your CV instead of actually moving, because as Louise points out, it’s not a very fair thing to have to do if you have a family or other reasons to stay.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, perhaps an actual physical move isn’t necessary, but it’s more about showing independence from previous supervisors, and certainly, if applying for future grants, that’s something that you might want to find ways to demonstrate.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Yeah.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, Tammaryn, you mentioned earlier that if you can justify staying in the same place, then that would be okay, but it might be necessary if you want to go and learn new skills, for example … But I think these are now encouraged in fellowship applications, for example, where you can go, for a few months, to another institution and learn those skills but bring them back. So, I do see that perhaps the outlook is changing a bit. I’m interested in know what you think about this.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah, I agree. And I completely agree with what Louise and Tara have just said. And I think, actually, Tara’s suggestion of pointing secondments now, if that is to learn a new skill, and maybe just go for another couple of months to a different lab to do that and then bring it back to your own lab, is a good way of dealing with that aspect of things. I did manage to go to spend some time at New York University during my PhD, although I was pregnant with my first child at the time. So, I did get an opportunity to spend some time in a different lab.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

But I think Tara’s suggestion to the previous question is building your networks, and that can all always be embedded into a fellowship application that you’ve built networks around your independent research ideas, you’ve got the support around whatever you want to study, I think can also help with those applications as well. So, even though you are based at one university, you have the support or mentors from different places to support you moving forward, I think, is a good thing as well.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

But I think everybody’s situation’s different and everybody’s personal circumstances are different. So, I don’t think there’s one-size-fits-all for this at all in any way, shape or form. So, I think as long as you can just justify, in your applications, why you are doing it a particular way, I don’t think reviewers can really … They can suggest better ways if they see better ways, but I think as long as you have the justification there, then I think whichever way works for you is okay.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, I feel building networks is really coming across as the important thing to establish independence, and that doesn’t necessarily mean having to move. Even if perhaps you can have experience in another lab, it doesn’t mean actually having to physically move there for a postdoc position, for example. And finally, Claire, what are your opinions on this? Do you that it’s necessary to move institutions for your career progression?

Professor Claire Surr:

I think it’s a bit different in the care and services research field, because I don’t think that’s the feedback you would get on a postdoc application that it would be looked favorably on if you moved institutions. I think in my field it’s much more, are you in the right place with the right support to be able to do the project that you want to do. And I think it is a similar thing to what everybody else has been saying about having the right networks.

Professor Claire Surr:

So, it may be that your PhD supervisor, you are carrying on some of your doctoral work, and it’s an expansion of that area. So, they would make a clear person to support you through a postdoc, but it would then be building up that group of people around you to give you other skills and knowledge. And maybe you are using a different data analysis technique, or you want to recruit from sites beyond the locality of your best, so maybe building networks elsewhere for those purposes.

Professor Claire Surr:

And I think that’s good for you in building future careers as well, beyond a postdoc application. I think building networks and having other people that you collaborate with and who you can work with and expanding those networks, that’s really important for career development. Certainly a lot of the research that I do now, all of it is collaborative, but the number of collaborations I’ve got working with teams all over the country, that’s part and parcel of how we all work now, I think.

Professor Claire Surr:

So, the sooner you can build those networks and people go, “Oh, I know somebody who has done some really good work in that area. I know somebody who’s got expertise in using ethnography or certain kinds of data collection methods. They’d be really good beyond our team for this grant application.” So, I think that’s part of career building is getting yourself known and working with people across different networks, who then might invite you to also be on their grant applications, because they can see what you might bring as an independent researcher.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, it’s interesting that perhaps different fields might have different expectations, but what really comes across is that building networks is the really important factor. So, I’m going to miss out the next question because we’ve got another two questions, and I want to make sure that we’ve got enough time, at the end, for questions from the listeners. And I feel we’ve pretty answered that next question anyway.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, what I think is that, it’s pretty easy to assume that all early career researchers want to progress to become a lecturer and then professors, and not all of them do. Many may be happy to continue as a postdoc for example, because they really enjoy the research that they’re doing, but they feel that they have to progress to being a lecturer because it offers more job security and stability.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, I’m interested to know whether you think that permanent postdoc positions should be a thing. And if so, who should be responsible for driving that forward? Should it be the institutions, should it be funders? And how do you think we need to reframe our attitudes to career progress in order to consider this? And do you know whether there are any lessons that we can learn from other countries that might have different models, different frameworks that they base academia on? So, Claire, let’s start with you.

Professor Claire Surr:

I think, definitely, that people should have that freedom of choice, and there shouldn’t be an expectation that everybody is driven to just be on the next step of the career ladder, and, “Oh, I must get onto this to be a senior lecturer or a reader or a professor,” because that doesn’t reflect you as a researcher and as an academic. It doesn’t make your research any better because you do it as a professor versus as a postdoc. I think it’s about people having that flexibility to choose what works for them.

Professor Claire Surr:

And some people are very passionate and they want to be doing the on-the-ground work and doing the data analysis and collecting data, and I think you do get more removed from that, certainly. In a professorial role, you are managing the research, and if that’s not your thing, then, we shouldn’t be expecting that people will all want to move to do that. In terms of how people can stay and be happy at whatever level they want to be, we’re looking at Leeds Beckett.

Professor Claire Surr:

There are two permanent postdoc researchers who work in my center. So, Laura Buoy and Rachel Kelly. Laura is a research fellow and Rachel’s a senior research fellow, and they are in permanent positions, because as the university supported me to build a center, they asked what things would help, and I said, it’d be really great to have a couple of postdoc posts to start with. And they were funded on a fixed term basis to start with, with a view that the university would see how that went. And if we brought in income, they would look to make them permanent, and they did that after two years of funding them as fixed term contracts.

Professor Claire Surr:

So, I think I’m lucky in that sense that I do have that stability that those two staff members have, and so that’s up to them. I think both of them will be looking to progress through career trajectories, but there’s no pressure on them. If they’re happy as a research fellow or a senior research fellow, then there’s no pressure on them to say, “You’ve got to be doing a reader application,” or, “We expect you to be a professor.” So, I think I’m lucky in that sense that we do have that freedom and flexibility.

Professor Claire Surr:

And in terms of who funds it, I think, obviously universities have to fund permanent positions. I think they do have to take a chance. And I think my department shows it’s possible to do that. We’ve got really good income generation that we’re able to actually do better, because often you can’t put in an application as a lead applicant if you don’t have a permanent contract. So, people end up in that endless revolving door of, you don’t have enough experience to lead on a grant application, but I can’t lead on a grant application to get that experience because I don’t have a permanent contract since I can’t apply for a grant that might be a two or three year grant where I’m costed on a 20% of my total time if I’ve only got 12 months left on a contract.

Professor Claire Surr:

So, I think we’ve got to work collectively as a system. So, I think there’s a responsibility for us as more senior academics to be making a case to our universities to say, “This is what we need. We risk losing people if we have this revolving door of people coming and going on fixed term contracts.” And I think it’s really important that they invest in that, but also that funders do, and obviously support that where they can. But we have to work on the basis that funders are only ever going to fund, usually, short term amounts of funding for particular research projects, unless you get a lab funder as you might do in other areas. But certainly in my field, it would be very rare for a full team to be funded.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah. I wonder as well whether that revolving door fixed term contracts that you mentioned, how that can ultimately stifle scientific progress. So, Tammaryn, what are your thoughts on whether you think permanent postdoc positions should be a thing? And if so, who would be driving that forward?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah, I think we need to look at academia more as a business model. So, you wouldn’t get any industry business model employing somebody for three years, training them for three years, and then potentially losing that person once they’ve upskilled themselves for a particular technique or a particular research project. So, I think having permanent postdoc positions should be a necessity in academia to drive the research and the science forward, really, because we can spend, as I said, three years training somebody to run a particular thing, and then they left, and we have to train somebody new once we’ve got more funding for that project or that idea moving forward.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Who should be driving it? I think, as Claire said, as senior academics, we should probably be taking this in our hands and asking for change from our institutions, and maybe working with funders to see how solutions could be made around making permanent postdoc positions. And I think, looking at it from a career development point of view, having gone through being a postdoc, an associate professor, and now a professor, I’ve often found that I’ve had to up-skillset myself for the different positions.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, as Claire said, as a professor now, I’ve spent most of my time managing my team, and less time in the lab, although I do try and put aside at least two days a week to go back into the lab and carry out experiments myself, because that’s what I’ve trained to do and that’s what I love to do. But I’ve certainly had to spend time learning how to manage a team to the best of my abilities. So, for me, I think if the option was there for a permanent postdoc position, when I was at that stage, I think I would’ve been happy to stay as a permanent postdoc, because I just love being in the lab.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I think we do need to make it change, and I think it’s down to both the institutions and funders and us as senior academics to drive this forward in some way.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Yeah. It’s always going to be a question of funding, isn’t it, because of the current model that academia is based on. We rely on the grants in order to fund current short term contracts for postdocs. So, where would the funding come from? And that’s something that maybe institutions and funders need to work together to come up with a solution. Tara, what do you think? Do you think that permanent postdoc positions should be a thing?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Yes, in a way I do. I think that academia, like our traditional academic tenure system is an incredibly privileged system. There aren’t very many jobs where you get a job, essentially, for life. And you were talking about comparing other countries. There are some countries in Europe where your post, if you are an academic, comes with some permanent staff positions, and they can be, from my understanding, technicians or postdocs. And in some ways that’s great because you’ve got that longevity in your lab of skills, and you know that these provides a career path for staff scientists as a long term career.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

But in some cases I’ve heard it doesn’t work brilliantly. So, I don’t know if that’s the answer. But I think you’re absolutely right, Kam, that it would have to be collaboration between funders and institutions to make that position tenable. So, for example, one thing I can think of that I haven’t had any traction with yet, but I think it might be one model to think about as an ecosystem, is if we can, first of all, convince the funders that, just because a brand new postdoc is cheaper doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the best value for the grant. So, if funders can accept that you could pay higher salaries than a brand new postdoc salary.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Also, maybe the institution can then underwrite their career saying, as long as you and your supervisor or your line manager can find funding, we will keep you on as a permanent staff member with some buffer of some number of years that the university might pay their salary, for example, while more funding was sought, that kind of thing. I think that might be a nice balance so that you’re linked to projects and sure it was going to be productive and it was funded with consumables, and you weren’t just sitting in a lab with no funding to do anything, but you also have that backup so you don’t have to leave and move.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Because postdocs, in many ways, are the life blood of the actual day-to-day work in the labs. So, we want to make that a career path. And I absolutely think it’s a lovely path. I agree with Tam. I do spend a couple days a week in the lab if I can. And I think it’s an ideal career, and I also think we should support and value it. Yeah.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Well, there we go. We probably have a potential solution. Louise, what are your thoughts on permanent postdoc positions?

Professor Louise Serpell:

Well, I think a lot of it’s been covered already. And I actually think it’s really important at least to provide that opportunity. I have several postdocs that have worked with me who do want to stay as postdocs. And I think what I really wanted to say is how valuable those people are and how important it is not to lose their expertise. And it’s frustrating not to be able to provide that opportunity for people to stay as postdocs if they want to, and be able to stay at the bench, doing this things that they were trained to do and the things that they’re really good at.

Professor Louise Serpell:

So, I don’t know what the answer is in terms of funding though. And I think, certainly, I don’t know about other people’s universities, but universities in general at the moment are undergoing lots of financial pressures. And I think it’s really hard to think about how the university would fund permanent postdocs. But whether that’s something that some of the research councils or charities might consider doing, particularly in Alzheimer’s disease research, I think, that incredible expertise that people build up would be really impressive if we could find a way of keeping …

Professor Louise Serpell:

I think [inaudible 00:50:17]. Obviously what we need to do is to support those choices that they want to carry on as a postdoc. So, I’m not suggesting we try and keep people when they want to progress into another role, but if that’s the choice of the individual, I think it would be really good if there was a … By which we could keep people on.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

Okay. So, in the interest of time so that we have enough time for questions from the listeners, I just want, in my last question, in just one or two sentences, what advice would you give to postdocs, or research fellows, who may feel that they’re stuck and not progressing through their careers perhaps how they wanted to or how they might have expected to? So, just in one or two sentences, what would your advice be? So, let’s start with Tammaryn.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

I just think, in a couple of sentences, it would be to network, and talk about your career path with either mentors at your university, or reach out and speak to other people that are in your discipline. Yeah, to network and talk, really.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

And Louise?

Professor Louise Serpell:

I think this is probably advice for all different roles and perspectives, is just to ensure that you’re somebody who’s surrounded by supportive environment, people who are interested in your career and are interested in helping you and supporting you for what you decide you want to do. So, in a way, the same thing as networking, but that level of support that I think is really important, that would mean that not only would you be able to carry on, but also feel better about where you currently are and how much you’re valued in that role.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

And Claire, what advice would you give?

Professor Claire Surr:

Yeah, those were my two points that everybody has already said. I think another thing would be to look at your CV and work out where the gaps are in the experience that you want to get, and seek out and take whatever opportunities you can. So, don’t be afraid to ask. And speak to that supportive network you’ve got and say, “Look, I really want to develop this area. How can I do that?” And say yes. Put yourself forward for things. Don’t be afraid to get in touch with people and build those networks and ask if you can, “I really want to do this. Could I come and join your team for a bit to learn more about that?”

Professor Claire Surr:

So, I’d say put yourself out there and make connections, and people quite often say yes. If they’re the right supportive people, they’ll want to help you, even if they’re not in your immediate team or university.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

And finally, Tara?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Thank you. So, two sentences; if you love it, keep going, persevere. It’s not the career path for everyone, but it is amazing. So, keep trying. But on the other hand, the second sentence is; don’t be afraid to leave. Everyone I know who has left academia for science in other venues or industry, or gone into other careers, has absolutely loved it and not regretted it at all. So, that would be it.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

That’s excellent advice. And I’ve just written a blog on leaving academia. So, Adam, do we have time for any questions from the audience?

Adam Smith:

We do. We can take a few questions. So, if you were listening and you have a question for any of our speakers, in the bottom row of your app you should see the heart button with the little plus next to it. If you tap on that, I think “raise your hand” is one of the options there, and then we can activate your microphone. We did have a question from Yvonne Couch, although she’s sent me this via text message. So, I’ll put this to you now.

Adam Smith:

She says she’s in a super noisy lab, so she can’t turn on a microphone, but she’d like to know what you think about how the landscape has changed. How is it different for a postdoc now say to four or five years ago? How has the landscape changed for postdocs in terms of how easy or harder it is to progress? Why don’t we put that to you first, Louise?

Professor Louise Serpell:

Gosh, that’s a really hard question, because I … Really hard question. I think, in a way, it felt a bit more straightforward when I was a postdoc. I think I’ve already said that I didn’t really have a strategic plan. And I think people now do have strategic plans, because they’re a bit clearer about the next and how they need to progress and move on. And I don’t know why. Honestly, I don’t know if I know the answer to this. I think I’m going to have to pass on someone else. But I just don’t feel I really thought about it. I just did, and it worked out. It was very haphazard. And there was a huge amount of luck involved. So, that’s not very helpful at all. Sorry.

Adam Smith:

No. I think you’re right. I think, luck, being in the right place at the right time, and luck definitely comes into it. I don’t know if other people would agree. Of course, you can make your own luck. Tara, did you have any to add?

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Yeah. I was talking to my friend and colleague, Claire [Duran 00:55:59] earlier, and she said luck is a huge part of it, but hard work is another huge part. So, you are unlikely to succeed without the hard work, and hopefully you get the luck. In terms of how postdocs have changed over past few years, unfortunately, I would say it’s harder to get fellowships right now because of the Brexit and economic climate. So, I think it’s a bit tougher to progress at the moment, but that could just be my perception.

Adam Smith:

No, I think you’re right. We’ve had a particularly, if anybody who relies on the charities of funding, we have had a year without funding, and of course that’s created a gap. So, it’s doubled up the number of people applying right now. So, something that’s come up … Just a reminder to anybody to raise your hand if you want to speak, we’ll turn on your microphone so you can ask your question.

Adam Smith:

Something that came up, one of the reasons why we’re even putting this focus on this week was from a few of our listeners who’ve contributed to the podcasts we’ve produced this week, which is this feeling of, I think it was three of them had six contracts that ranged in length from six months to two years, and they’re feeling like they obviously had set put down routes, but then that was always a limiting factor, because they were always stuck only being able to look at contracts and new jobs that were within a certain distance of where they were, and just found it challenging.

Adam Smith:

So, many were dependent upon having partners then who had permanent jobs to just be able to do practical things like buy new cars, to get a mortgage, and things like that. What would you say to anybody who’s feeling, I don’t know if this question’s been asked, but that’s got to end of this, that’s had a fellowship and is now coming towards the end of their senior fellowship about what they do next, those that are panicking? Oh, I’ve got to put this to somebody, haven’t I? What about Tammaryn?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Oh, I was hoping you weren’t going to ask me.

Adam Smith:

So, let’s give you a scenario. So, you’ve done four postdoc positions, you’re just coming to the end, this year, of your senior postdoc, and you’re not sure what comes next. Where do you go from there?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Oh, I think that was the situation I found myself in anyway. So, I had managed a major panic attack, to be honest. Then, I just made meetings with all the senior professors at UCL and went and discussed how my career progressed so far, where I thought I could see myself fitting into either known projects they’re already carrying out at UCL, what I would like to do is my independent research. And that opened up opportunities to apply for funding, or they directed me to different funding opportunities.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I think you’ve got to go and … These were Martin Russell, Nick Fox, John Hardy, although John was my head of department at the time. So, although I hadn’t worked closely with these senior professors at the time, I found it quite daunting, because I’m not a naturally outspoken or put myself at the forefront of things. So, for me it was really difficult and really challenging to do that. But I just sat one day, sent them all emails. They were all very responsive. And I think I spent the whole week just doing a tour of UCL meeting people and getting their opinions around things.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I think, even if you find it difficult, people are quite receptive to want to help people progress in their careers if they see that it’s going to be beneficial to them and maybe other projects in the university as well. So, never be afraid of going and speaking and seeking advice. Like I said, it was completely outside my comfort zone, but I think that was the turning point in my career where I actually realized, actually, I can do this. If I put myself out there and come up with the ideas, I’ve got a shot of doing it.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

And I think one other piece of advice I would give for the last question as well about not progressing is, don’t compare yourself to other people. And I think that’s what I spent a lot of time doing as a junior postdoc is seeing other people progressing, but then comparing my situation and my area of expertise with other people that will, say, working in cell biology or genetics. And I don’t think you can compare across different disciplines either.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I think, don’t compare yourself to others. And go out and network and speak to people of how they can be supportive with your career as well. You can’t do it alone. You need the support of others. So, definitely get yourself out there and speak to others.

Adam Smith:

And that brings you back to this idea that mentors aren’t just something that you have very early in your career, that you can have a network of mentors who you can go to at different times with different challenges and prepare this right from the earliest stages, even as you … We did a podcast earlier in the week, from postdoc speaking back to PhD students, to say, is there anything you can do very early on in your or career that will help you potentially avoid this problem later down the line.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah, definitely. And even now, I know my network of people who I can rely on, really, to go to. And I don’t go to the same person to speak about the same thing. So, I’ll have one person I know I can speak to about one certain topic, but I’ve definitely got senior professors at the Institute of Neurology and UCL who I know I can drop an email, “Can we just have a five minute chat?” And they’re just so supportive. So, reach out to people.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

And likewise, I’m passing that forward now to people that are applying for their junior fellowships on helping them with their applications, listening to what their concerns, reservations are. If I can pass on any help to people coming through, then, by all means, get in touch. I’m happy to help where I can.

Adam Smith:

Thank you. Everybody’s been a bit shy today. It doesn’t look like anybody’s got any questions. So, last call for questions. But Kam, do you want to summarize the takeaways, do you think?

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

I feel it’s very easy to feel you’re stuck at the postdoc stage, but I really like all of the advice of building your own network, because I feel I have seen a lot of people being advised to move, and that can create issues. And it can also stifle research in some ways, because every time you have to move, you have to learn, where is this piece of equipment, how does this work? And you have to deal with moving and all of the challenges that that comes with. And you might be leaving your support network that you’ve established where you currently live, such as your family or friends that you have.

Dr Kamar Ameen-Ali:

So, I like the idea of building a network that is independent from your PhD supervisor or your first postdoc supervisor, and not necessarily having to move in order to do that. I feel more hopeful after having this discussion. I feel more positive. And I also like what Tara said about, if you want to leave academia, that should be supported, and we should be encouraging people to look outside of academia, so that creates progression as well.

Adam Smith:

Absolutely. And I think the important point, hopefully, institutions and research, for any research funders that might retrospectively be listening to this, is to really think hard about how you can fund things differently, to introduce that stability which I think will really benefit researchers and people’s careers for those that do want to stay in the one place and get on with doing the research. Are there any last points anybody would like to make before we wrap up today?

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

I think I’d just like to make one more point about, we’ve all been through quite a rough time over the last couple of years with COVID, but we can actually use that to our advantage with now … We don’t even have telephones at UCL anymore. Everything’s on Teams. But with the video calling it’s easier to get in touch with people, it’s easier to just have a quick five, 10 minute call with people. So, look at the advantages of that with networking. You can stay where you are and still be in touch with people.

Adam Smith:

Definitely. And social media, of course, is evil, but it’s also wonderful as well, and has this real potential to allow you to connect with people, isn’t it? And of course, on the Dementia Researcher website we have bios on, not only all of our fantastic panelists today, but lots of people who’ve contributed blogs and podcasts and things to our website. You can filter through those according to their different research fields or where they work, and details of their Twitter accounts and contact details are all in there.

Adam Smith:

So, if you’re looking for somebody to talk to. Everybody who’s got a bio on there has agreed to be contacted by listeners. So, please do go and have a look at that as well if you are looking for somebody who works in your field. Thank you so much, Kam, for hosting with us today, and also the podcasts and blogs and things you’ve contributed this week. To our wonderful guests, Prof. Tara Spires-Jones, Prof. Claire Surr, Prof. Tammaryn Lashley, and of course, Prof. Louise Serpell. I forgot your name there, Louise, sorry. Thank you very much, everybody. And we’ll let you get back to your Friday.

Professor Tammaryn Lashley:

Thank, everyone.

Professor Tara Spires-Jones:

Bye.

Adam Smith:

Thank you. Thanks. Bye-bye.

END