Podcast – The Hidden Support: Dementia Researchers’ Partners

Voice Over:

The Dementia Researcher podcast, talking careers, research, conference highlights, and so much more.

Adam Smith:

Welcome to the Dementia Researcher Podcast, the show where we explore the diverse, often uncharted territories of dementia research. I’m Adam Smith, and today we have a truly special episode for you. As you will know, we venture into the world of research and often focus on the scientists and the breakthroughs and discoveries that shape our understanding of dementia. And this week we’ve been looking at how to manage family life and a research career. But what about the unsung heroes? The pillars of support behind the scenes who play an integral role in the lives of dementia researchers, the husbands, wives, families, partners, lovers, and significant others.

Our episode today is titled The Hidden Support System. It’s a glimpse into the lives of those who stand shoulder to shoulder with researchers offering unwavering, encouragement, love, and understanding. We have the privilege of hearing from three remarkable individuals all connected to dementia researchers who’ve generously shared their time and will give us some insights. Through their stories we’ll explore the intricacies of supporting someone on the front lines of dementia research. We’ll delve into the challenges they face, the joys they celebrate, and the unbreakable bonds they forged in the face of demanding schedules and emotional highs and lows. So, without further ado, let’s meet our guests.

It’s my pleasure to introduce Andy Lashley, Michael O’Reilly, and Joao Moreira. Hello.

Michael O’Reilly:

Hello.

Andy Lashley:

Hey.

Joao Moreira:

Hi.

Adam Smith:

So, we’ll do some proper introductions and allow you to tell us a little bit about yourselves. Andy, why don’t you go first?

Andy Lashley:

Sure. My name is Andrew Lashley. I am an architect. I run my practice from my headquarters at the end of our garden, and I look after Tammaryn and our three kids.

Adam Smith:

Well done. Thanks, Andy, Andrew. Is it Andrew or Andy?

Andy Lashley:

Andrew, Andy, and a few others as well.

Adam Smith:

That’s fine. And Michael, why don’t you go next?

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, my name’s Michael. I’m a scenic artist working for the Royal Opera House. My wife is Zanna Boise. We have one little girl called Ren who’s just a little bit older than two and a half now, she keeps us quite busy, and we’re based out sort of, kind of in the back end of nowhere, but kind of near Stansted Airport, we live out there.

Adam Smith:

Well, on the way to Brighton. Does that make … Oh no, Stansted, Cambridge, the other one.

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, the other one. Yeah, Cambridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’d be nice to be nearer to the sea.

Adam Smith:

What an amazing job. We are definitely going to have to come back and hear more about your work later. And Joao?

Joao Moreira:

Yeah. Hi, my name is Joao Moreira. I’m a staff software engineer at a health insurance startup company here in the United States. We’re currently based in Boston, Massachusetts, and no kids because Isabelle is already a handful. So yeah.

Adam Smith:

So, in this show we’re going to talk about what life is like for you and how you support the researcher in your life. But before, we are going to have a little fun and test your knowledge with a quiz which older listeners may recognize as a format stolen from a show called Mr. And Mrs. To explain, before we started recording, we asked the researchers in your lives to answer a few questions about themselves and their work and home life. And we’re going to test all of your knowledge to see if you can answer the questions. Are you all confident?

Michael O’Reilly:

I wouldn’t say that.

Adam Smith:

Okay. So, before we get to the discussion, let’s have the quiz. First question, we asked our researchers to describe what they do for a living, what their job is in no more than a couple of sentences. And I’m going to go to Andy. Andy, what do you think? We are going to add up the scores for this and tally them up and see if we have a winner. Andy, what do you think Tammaryn, how did she answer that question? What does Tammaryn do?

Andy Lashley:

I know what she’d like it to be, but what it is that I think she’s spending more time trying to get funding for her people than she is doing the research that she really would like to do.

Adam Smith:

Are you trying to say that Tammaryn’s job is writing grant applications?

Andy Lashley:

Yes.

Adam Smith:

Well, I mean I think you might be right, but that isn’t how she answered the question.

Andy Lashley:

All right. But she loves the lab so it’s hard.

Adam Smith:

Okay. Michael, why don’t you have a go?

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, it sounds like something similar. I would say, Zanna is a doctor, she’s a neurologist, but she’s currently in a PhD on the topic of Huntington’s disease, looking specifically at sleep would be my concise answer.

Adam Smith:

Okay. I’m going to give you the answers once we… I’m going to go to Joao first. So, Joao, what do you think Isabelle? How did Isabelle answer that question?

Joao Moreira:

Isabelle is a postdoctoral researcher. She is doing research specifically in Alzheimer’s disease right now. I know she’s doing dry labs, so most of what she does is in bioinformatics. And I can specifically say that I think her current project is studying people with resilience to the disease, which is pretty interesting.

Adam Smith:

You weren’t reading that? She didn’t prime you and give you that answer before?

Joao Moreira:

No, she did not. No, I’ve just heard it enough times to kind of memorize, like burn it into my brain.

Adam Smith:

That’s okay. Well let’s see what Isabelle had to say. Isabelle said she studies Alzheimer’s disease from a genomics perspective, mainly transcriptomics and epigenomics. Currently, she’s investigating resilience in Alzheimer’s disease using bioinformatics and computational biology approaches with a particular interest on single cell and spatial transgenomics. I think you get full marks for that, so that’s one point for you. Michael, let’s see what Zanna, yeah?

Michael O’Reilly:

Zanna likes Anna with a Z.

Adam Smith:

Zanna.

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah.

Adam Smith:

Let’s see what Zanna said. I’m a neurology doctor currently working as a clinical research fellow undertaking a PhD looking at sleep abnormalities and whether they worsen the symptoms and accelerate the disease biology of dementia. I’m looking specifically at Huntington’s disease.

Michael O’Reilly:

I guess mine was the dumbed down version of that. This was so much more eloquent.

Adam Smith:

Full marks for you as well. Andy, do you-

Andy Lashley:

[inaudible].

Adam Smith:

I mean you definitely get full marks for getting the most comical and honest answer, but Tammaryn said she’s a neuroscientist using postmortem brain tissue to understand the mechanisms leading to neurodegenerative diseases.

Andy Lashley:

Yeah, I knew that.

Adam Smith:

You knew that. Perfect. Okay, I think that’s full marks all round, three points each. Next question, we’re just going to do a few questions before we get into the main quirks of the show. How many hours a week do they work? Andy, how many hours a week does Tammaryn work?

Andy Lashley:

That’s easily up in the seventies I would imagine. Even when she’s not at work, she’s working. So, it’s that sort of number I would imagine.

Adam Smith:

Seventies. Well, she said it’s hard to put a number on it. It varies week by week, but on average she thinks it’s 45.

Andy Lashley:

No, she’s lying.

Adam Smith:

So still more than she-

Andy Lashley:

No, she’s lying.

Adam Smith:

I have to say to anybody who’s listening to the podcast, if you listen to the show that came out on Monday or the interview, we’ve had with Tammaryn this week, I’m sure she did actually put it at more like 60 something, but there you go. What about you Michael?

Michael O’Reilly:

Well, I don’t know what it would be in hours, but Zanna works four days a week and the other day she’s looking after our little girl and she works full days and obviously it’s kind of hard to switch off sometimes we’ll take work home with us, but she’s quite good at it. But yeah, I would say she’s very hardworking and works probably more than four days, but in reality, it’s meant to be four days.

Adam Smith:

Well, it is a competition but no, you’re exactly right. A hundred percent four days a week, 32 hours, nursery doesn’t allow for more. I think that’s perfect. And Joao, how many hours a week does Isabelle work?

Joao Moreira:

It typically fluctuates between 40 and 50, I would say. More recently it’s thankfully leaning more towards the 40, so I’m going to be like 45 is my guess.

Adam Smith:

Hit the nail on the head. I think it’s around 40 hours a week. It depends on the week, but some weeks it’s definitely more than that, but I’m trying to get a better work-life balance. Well done. I think you’re nailing this quiz. You’re all doing really well. We have one more question before we get to the main point of the podcast. And just actually before we move on, from hours per week, do you as much as though the hours people actually … the hours they actually work, does the amount of time they work cause any problems? Do you think it’s too much, not enough? I mean, how does that compare to yourselves? Anybody?

Andy Lashley:

When she’s working from home, we’re at the other end of a desk to each other or at the dining table, so we probably work very similar hours. Sometimes it’s even sort of like I’m in doing things and she’s out working, so it is very … but she’s always doing something to prepare for something else it seems.

Adam Smith:

Yeah, you can understand that particularly in the evenings and things like that. I don’t know about Joao, for anybody who’s not watching this as the video podcast, I can see a chair next to you that looks like maybe you have a similar setup to Andy.

Joao Moreira:

Her desk is right next to mine for sure.

Andy Lashley:

That is a bit close for me though. She’s at least four meters away.

Joao Moreira:

Small apartment here in Boston so that’s all we get.

Adam Smith:

Okay. Let’s have the third question, and this is a little bit more of a fun one, but relevant when you’re considering the balance of domestic responsibilities, which was who’s the best cook? Andy, who’s the best cook in your house?

Andy Lashley:

You’re looking at him, without a doubt. I’m also the most frustrated because she hates my getting everything out a filling up the place, having everything all laid out ready for cooking.

Adam Smith:

Well, you’d be pleased to know Tammaryn agreed with you. What about you Michael?

Michael O’Reilly:

I think Zanna will have probably put me down. She’s a brilliant cook, but I think she would’ve put me.

Adam Smith:

You’re absolutely right. She did. And Joao.

Joao Moreira:

Yeah, same thing. I’m pretty sure Isabelle put me down as well, but my personal opinion is that we’re pretty much on equal footing. We do very well at cooking both of us.

Adam Smith:

Interesting. So, Isabelle gave quite a long answer to this question.

Joao Moreira:

Oh, no.

Adam Smith:

Isabelle said both of us, he will say that it’s me, meaning you’d say that it was her, but she disagrees. That’s because she’s cooked for a long time and you used to hate cooking, but now she thinks you’re both equally as good.

Joao Moreira:

The initial agreement for some context in our relationship was that Isabelle was going to be the one cooking and I would do the dishes all the time. This was many, many years ago. It obviously doesn’t work that way anymore, but the reasoning is cooking just takes a long time, which makes me a bit of an impatient person, I prefer doing the dishes in 15 minutes and be done with it.

Adam Smith:

Well, I think the first three questions in this quiz have definitely proven that you’re all well-placed and you all know the researcher in your life particularly well. We’re going to come back to the quiz later, but let’s pause there and we’ll pick up on the questions that we want to get to on this podcast.

Okay, well we’re back and I thought what we might actually start with at this point is just a little bit about empathy and understanding. As we’ve discovered, understanding the intricacy of dementia research may not be easy. How have you cultivated empathy and understanding for your partner’s work? As you’ve all just explained, you certainly know what they do, but how have you cultivated an understanding of their work and how do you navigate conversations about it? I mean, assuming you talk about their work at home, Michael, why don’t you go first?

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, I guess I suppose we’ll ask about each other day and what we’ve done at the end of the day and stuff. I suppose more specifically, I’ve been a Guinea pig for Zanna a couple of times, specifically having all the electrodes put on my head when she’s been preparing to do sleep studies and she’s needed somebody to practice on. So yeah, having various little gluey things stuck into my head, having to sort of sit around for a long time. I’m trying to think of anything else. I mean we have various members of family who have got dementia and so I suppose that adds another element of, how we both navigate the subject on a kind of personal level as well, not just a work level, seeing how it kind of impacts family, but also seeing it in a work context as well I think is quite a good balance.

Adam Smith:

And you mentioned, obviously we’ve talked that Zanna is a neurologist and is doing their PhD right now. Is her normal day job in dementia and Huntington’s prior to getting involved in research?

Michael O’Reilly:

No, so she was working as a doctor training in neurology, full-time medicine and I think she’s always had an interest in that area, but then I guess how things fall into place really, she found that sort of niche and yeah.

Adam Smith:

We’ve talked on the show before about trying to encourage more clinical researchers to think about a research career and it’s always a bit of a challenge ’cause I think everybody’s so busy in their clinical day job too. Have things changed at all? I mean is this now slightly less hours? Is it easier now that they’re working in…

Michael O’Reilly:

I guess it’s quite different … I mean I think she would love to stay in research. I think the way she works; she’s definitely built to be a researcher. She’s built to be a doctor as well for sure, but I think she really enjoys it. And we were sort of talking before about the work-life balance, we both work four days a week now, which is really balanced and she said that I was the better cook, but we’ll just take it in turns and it’s just much more of I guess a kind of work and outside of work balance, whereas obviously when you’re working in medicine it’s very different and obviously you accommodate for that, but it’s a very different lifestyle, especially when you’ve got kids and stuff.

Adam Smith:

I suppose, is there a difference do you think, between coming home, having a full clinical day when you’ve had that challenge of dealing with patients as opposed to coming home and thinking, oh God, I’ve got to write a paper or I’m supposed to be writing another chapter on my PhD and things. Do you find yourself having more to offer if you like, in terms of helping when it’s something academic as opposed to clinical?

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, I guess because to some extent I can grasp academia, but when it comes to medicine it’s just a totally different world to me. And obviously I still just … I think at the end of the day it’s nice to just have your other partner hear about what you’ve done or some of the things that you’ve found challenging or whatever. Yeah.

Adam Smith:

Andy, you have very different jobs. How have you cultivated that understanding and empathy?

Andy Lashley:

I’m a technical support Dropbox at the end of the day. We have … how should I say it? Tammaryn has an incredible work ethic to start with. If something needs doing, get it done, end of story. I am a designer, so I like to ponder, but we both have an interest in the sort of technical aspects of anything. So, I’m very interested in what she’s doing even though I understand 40% of what she’s saying to me. But our system seems to be that when she’s started needing a lift home from the train station, at the end of the day it was immediate download on the way home, get home, deal with whatever needs to be dealing with here and sorting family situations out and this sort of thing.

And then we’d probably have in the evening another discussion and download about what she’s thinking about doing, ideas, approaches to things and whatever my 2 cents might be, I’ll never know if it gets used or not. But for me, I’m very interested in what she’s doing, and I’ve been around from the very beginning because Tammaryn is a scientific researcher rather than going through any clinical doctoral sort of thing, so she actually came through a technical side. And because I’m interested in how things work and how things go together, I find it, for me, it’s sort of like a break from my architectural thinking to discuss her thinking about neurology, brains, and dementia, that sort of thing. So, I quite enjoy it, actually.

Adam Smith:

This is probably a bit of an unfair question actually because of course we’re making this show all about them and their work, of course ’cause it’s the Dementia Researcher podcast, but do you get that back? I mean we are talking about how this download and the empathy for what they do. There’s a lot of talk particularly on this podcast and on our website about how academia is hard, and I’ve held other jobs before and I kind of go, well yeah, but so are other jobs. Do you get that same empathy back for the kind of work you do?

Andy Lashley:

If I talk to her about my work, there’s a definite glazing over, but if she’s sat in the room when I’m speaking with clients, she’s at the other end going … because she can’t believe my job is to get people to actually open up to me and let me in their lives so that I can actually design something that works for them. As a result of that, we might have spouses on a Teams call having a full meltdown argument and she’s at the side there thinking, what is going on there?

Adam Smith:

They disagree about the new house design.

Andy Lashley:

Exactly, because there’s nothing more sensitive than whether a toilet goes here or here. So particularly since COVID when we’ve been working quite a lot in the same space, she’s had a much more interesting understanding of what my work is. But if I go back home and tell her I’ve had a problem with getting bricks to hit on a lintel, the brain is much more interesting.

Adam Smith:

How about you Joao, how have you cultivated empathy and understanding for Isabelle’s work and how do you talk about it?

Joao Moreira:

The right answer is probably slowly over time. Isabelle has been sort of on this academia career path for quite a long time now. She’s done two bachelor’s degrees, one master’s and one PhD, and she’s now continuing to the postdoc. So, the expectations were set at the beginning of our relationship of what she wanted to do. And obviously we’ve all … I think one of the bigger strengths in our relationship is communication. We just talk a lot. Even if we’re just at home, even with the TV on, we’ll just chat sometimes and just not pay attention to whatever is going on. And obviously with that, 40% of what she talks about will be her work, maybe more sometimes depending on the weeks. So, I’m more than happy to hear about what makes her excited about life and makes her excited about work. I think it’s like you say, I don’t know, being kind of cheesy, but seeing that glimpse of light in her eye when she’s talking about stuff that makes her excited is always good for me.

Adam Smith:

Yeah, I can absolutely see that. Did you understand what you were getting into? I mean, did you know about the instability of academic careers and the challenges that came with research before … I don’t know, of course, I’m guessing depending on when your relationship started, they would’ve already been researchers before you met or that career has developed while you’ve been together. But did you understand the challenges around that? I don’t know Michael. I guess it’s a bit different ’cause Zanna’s career would’ve started in university.

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, that’s right. And when I met her, she was a doctor. She was working in the NHS full-time. And then I think she actually started research probably just a little bit after we got married. So, it was interesting to … I was just really excited for her. It was really cool to see her excited about … and also to take that plunge and take time out from something that you’ve been doing for so long. And yeah, it’s really brave just to sort of try learning. I think it’s interesting to see how she’s having to learn lots of new things with quite little guidance in some ways. So that’s really cool.

Adam Smith:

So, this is probably, I don’t know if we’ve already covered some of this. Have there been moments when you found it challenging to comprehend the complexities of their research? I mean, Andy, you’ve already mentioned that you got about … I think if you can claim you’re getting 40% of what they’re talking about, then I think you’re already doing incredibly well. Joao, what percentage of Isabelle’s work do you think you would say? Andy said 40, it’s not a competition.

Joao Moreira:

Yeah, it’s hard to measure it. I have the advantage of also working with … I’m also a programmer and Isabella is doing programming effectively. So that side of things I can understand quite a bit. But yeah, I’d probably be close to 40% as well, 40, 50% of just understanding everything that she’s telling me at any point in time. Yeah.

Adam Smith:

Do you think it matters? Do you really need to fully understand the details of what they do? Instead, is this just about being there to answer questions … ’cause then let’s face it, they’re not going to come to you, I expect with a detailed question about their work, ’cause they know you’re not going to be able to answer that except maybe you Joao with some coding skills.

Joao Moreira:

Yeah. It’s happened before, for sure.

Adam Smith:

But I guess they’re not going to come to you and talk about powering studies or what this means on a particular MRI they’re reading that’s been done on somebody with a sleep problem, are they? So, I guess does it really matter that you don’t fully understand but instead you just have enough that they can talk about this?

Andy Lashley:

I think the scientific jargon around dementia and the various camps that dementia lives in for people running down certain avenues of research and this sort of thing, I understand the conceptual nature of research and the fact that I will never understand the particular areas of the brain that do certain things in the same way that she does ’cause she plays with it every day effectively. But from my point of view, if we’re having a discussion on any subject, I know I can manage sort of what I would call my side of the discussion to respond to … because sometimes I might tell her, well, have you tried this? And then, oh yeah, well I’ve done this, and I’ve done that and the next and we go down an avenue. But my issue is that two days later, if she comes back and starts that conversation, I say, well, let’s just head back to the beginning first and bring me back up to speed.

Adam Smith:

Well, I was just thinking about this actually ’cause I guess it’s not just about the research that they’re going to talk about, but instead it’s the environment, it’s the career, it’s the structures and as you mentioned at the start, the kind of grant applications and the complexities of working in an academic institution where they’re all different and how you get a promotion or … because it’s not the same as working in a company, is it? It’s very different.

Andy Lashley:

I find science does not qualify people and encourage them along. Tammaryn has had a few of these cases where people have become qualified and then unless they get their funding, they have nowhere to go, from that point of view. And so, I think science is very difficult when you imagine it. I mean, Tammaryn has had one or two occasions in her career where a grant may be finishing and there’s no new grant on the horizon, and luckily, she has had that sort of reputation where she’s had the support to bridge between two potential grants, that sort of thing. But science is quite cruel from that point of view because you’re bringing people up… It’s not so much about the expectation of having a career in science, which is a difficult thing I think, but it’s the fact that you bring people to a point where they are high level scientific thinkers, but they’re not trained to understand the fact that they have to find their own funding at a point and how to do that. It’s sort of like you got here now, see you.

Adam Smith:

I think it’s when you talk to anybody outside of academia and you talk to them about what the career paths are like and how they’re all these short-term contracts of a year or two and now you have to apply for your own funding and you might not get another job or you might have to move. Everybody’s kind of often surprised I think that it’s not straightforward where there’s an obvious path where you start out with a PhD and if you tick this box, this box, this box, you’ll be a professor in six years. I mean in the NHS, I guess there is kind of that there for consultants, although not necessarily because she might not have a course at the end, but then when you flip that into research, it’s entirely different.

Andy Lashley:

I always ask her what is the potential number of great scientists and discoveries that have been lost to science because they did not get that last round of funding?

Adam Smith:

Yeah. Michael, you were going to add to that.

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, I was just going to add to that. I think it’s really interesting because for mine and Zanna’s relationship, Zanna’s probably come from that background of its very structured, tick, tick, tick, career path and then jumping into funding, it’s this kind of different world. But for me, kind of coming from a sort of art, fine art freelance background where you haven’t got consistent stuff going on all the time, that side of it, I was like, yeah, I totally get that. You’re totally self-directed in some ways. You got to sort of push for things and knock on doors and try various avenues. And so even though our careers are completely sort of worlds apart, on that side, I could be more sympathetic and understanding, I guess, and offer more support.

Adam Smith:

Yeah, I guess you could have a better understanding the most about that kind of freelancer because it is a bit like a free … I mean it’s not, but it is a bit like a freelancer, isn’t it? You haven’t got that structure, and if you’re in the NHS, there aren’t that many actual research funders that are going to fund your career. They might fund your research, but there’s only a few there.

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, I remember putting in applications for funding and stuff. So yeah.

Adam Smith:

Actually that brings us really nicely into this next section, which I thought we’d talk a little bit about the emotional side because you’re all there during these kind of highs and lows, I guess Joao and Andrew particularly, you’re going to have gone through this because there’s going to have been grant applications they’ve written during that time, job applications, promotions they’ve gone for. Can you describe how you feel when your partner gets those setbacks or challenges in their research? I mean, how does that affect you and how do you then try to support them? Joao, why don’t you go first?

Joao Moreira:

It’s a great question. I think I have the advantage that Isabelle, by nature, is very emotional. Her life generally is very up and down, so I have gained the skills to deal with that quite a bit. So, when she’s feeling a bit down and low, I will do whatever I can to support her, even if it’s just small things like, get her favorite snack or whatever it might be, just to compensate for a little bit. But Isabelle prefers to have as much space as possible to sort of digest the bad things that have happened. That’s the way she kind of functions and I have learned that over time. So overall-

Adam Smith:

But she does come home and talk about it though, she’ll come home and so it’s not something that won’t even get … say a grant rejection, she’ll come home and say, my grant-

Joao Moreira:

I’ll know. I’ll definitely know about it. We will definitely talk about it. She will be a bit more emotional and try to blame herself a lot of the time for this. But I try to put things into perspective. I know sometimes when you’re emotional, putting things into perspective isn’t exactly what you’re looking for. A lot of the time you just want somebody to hear what you have to say. So, I tend to be that person to hear what she has to say, just let her dump whatever she has on me and then just give her space to recover from that. That’s usually the winning strategy. If I have a solution to offer her, I will give her advice obviously. But it’s always a bit sensitive I think because you never know when people are accepting of advice or not depending on their emotions.

Adam Smith:

What about you, Andy?

Andy Lashley:

I alluded to it previously as well, but there are definite ups and downs from that point of view, but if I could explain when things don’t work, my business is very much I have to go and present myself to clients and I give them a fee proposal. They come back and tell me yes or no, and we go ahead. Emotionally, I don’t get tagged into it. That probably happens to me during the job. I get really locked into the client and their ideas and needs. Tammaryn has, earlier on in her career, she definitely had a situation where every grant meant something. It meant a future and the disappointments were really tough, but we always sort of talk through them. We had a particular moment in our lives back when they had the financial crash in 2008. My business thanked. I mean it just dried up literally over about two or three weeks. All my clients shut down; I had nothing. And I had actually just built the first half of this office because I was planning on growth.

But we sat down in that August together, talked through everything and said, okay, she’s still good, her job is secure, she’s safe with her circumstance, we’ll be okay. And then in February, her boss and her mentor said that he would be retiring and therefore her grant would not get renewed and suddenly our lives were … we had no idea what was going to happen next. If she was going to get another grant, it would’ve been submitted within weeks of that and it was just impossible to do. So, she was definitely going to skip a grant round and a lot of people came up to [inaudible] work to offer her support, which was good. But we did have a period of about six or eight months where we were wondering where we are still going to be in here in next week sort of thing.

So, it’s not the disappointment of the grant, which could be in a moment or two or three weeks, it’s actually a significant, how does it affect your life? And that just happened where we both coincided with a down and it hit pretty hard. But since then, we have managed to have a good sort of more even sort of keel. And since that moment, her career has been on an essentially upward trajectory. So, she’s always been … I mean I think the situation now is she’s probably less bothered about how grants affect her and more how they affect the people that work for her having gone through that experience.

Adam Smith:

And I guess as time comes on, the grant application’s disappointing, but it’s not the difference between having a roof over your head and not, which I can see that.

Andy Lashley:

But now she does worry about those people that she’s trying to get grants for, making sure they have a roof over their head next year.

Adam Smith:

And again, I suppose that’s the same question. So, do you know about that, Andy? I mean is this a, they’ll come home and say, oh, this grant was rejected today, and you’ll have a conversation.

Andy Lashley:

We’ll talk in a lot of detail about what grant she’s going for, what they mean, and she’s a very good and caring leader of people, but I don’t think she got into this position really fully acknowledging the fact that she would now be trying to maintain other people’s livelihoods to that extent. And again, few businesses, because I mean for architects, when I got trained, we didn’t get trained to run businesses, we got trained to design things. The same thing is happening in her environment. They don’t get trained to manage people and you’re either good at it or you’re not. But if there was training, it would probably make things a lot easier to resolve.

Adam Smith:

Well, it sounds like you’ve all worked out strategies for how to provide that support. There is of course the flip side to that, which is as much as there are grant objections, there are lots of things that come back that are positive. I mean, papers published, grants accepted, just a good day in the lab where the results came back that you were looking for or you managed to recruit some patients into your study today when it’s been particularly difficult, how do you share in that success with them? Michael, I’ll come to you.

Michael O’Reilly:

I suppose one kind of thing that comes to mind is probably the first major grant for funding over a couple of years that Zanna got was she was applying for it during lockdown in the very early stages of COVID. She was in the early stages of pregnancy as well, and I had got, when nobody knew anything about it, I got COVID, and I was just super, super unwell within the first week that everything shut down. Zanna was trying to work, do these applications, and I was like, I really don’t want to bother you, but could you get me a drink or something? In bed here, but I’d leave her to it. Obviously, I’m not going to ask her to do a lot of stuff.

And I remember, I can’t remember if it were a phone call or an email or I just heard a little noise downstairs and then I was kind of laid out in bed, came scuttling upstairs, super stoked that she’d got this big grant, she’d just got the news for it. And I was just like, I’m so happy for you, but I can’t properly express how happy I am for you ’cause I’m so unwell. So yeah, it is always great.

And I guess it’s always one of those things as well. It’s like even if it is a rejection, it’s like right, what can we learn from this? What can you learn from this? We’ll just talk about it and stuff. And just the more you do them, I guess the more you learn about them, the more you get or don’t get, you kind of figure out how to respond to positive and negative feedback and stuff. And she’s literally just put another grant in, proposal. I think we were on the phone; I was driving home just before this and she’s like, I’ve just submitted that now and we’ve kind of gone through the storm of having to sort that all out with various people and stuff. So yeah, you’re there with them, I think. And obviously it’s there. Yeah.

Adam Smith:

I can see empathy just emanating from all of you to enjoy those highs and lows. Which actually brings me to a … you bring me to a good question there, Michael, about practically involve you. I mean obviously we will talk a little bit later about home life and practical things you do at home, but do they practically involve you in their work? I mean, are you all proofreading stuff? Are you looking at their charts? Are you reading grant applications? Are you proofreading papers, anybody?

Andy Lashley:

That’s where I’m getting left behind now because I used to help do all of her diagrams and all this sort of thing, and now she’s got into doing them. It is sort of like she’s showing me, I’m like, but that’s my thing.

Adam Smith:

Joao, obviously you’ve been checking Isabelle’s code.

Joao Moreira:

Oh no, I don’t actively check her code, but I have done quite a bit of proofreading as well. English is not our first language, we’re both Portuguese, so she keeps repeating that my English skills are better than hers. So, she always tends to kind of lean on me when she has some letter that she wants to write or an email or whatever, she will try to run it through me first. But yeah, on the code side, I don’t think it’s like I do tend to help her with some issues that she may have. But I think the biggest contribution I’ve given to her is what to expect when going into coding because you need to be in a specific frame of mind when you’re programming, and you need to expect your brain to work in different ways. I have days that I’m programming and nothing good comes out. It’s kind of like any creative job and on other days and helping her understand that that’s what’s going to happen I think was probably the biggest practical contribution I’ve given to her job.

Adam Smith:

And do you all talk to them as well, I mean given their unique set of skills, they’re all good at writing grant applications, they’ve authored papers, they understand detail. I mean, do you go to them with your work problems as well? Are they helpful?

Joao Moreira:

Yeah, I will definitely lean on her for anything that needs any sort of attention to detail ’cause to be honest, I am terrible at attention to detail. So, Isabelle has that skill, which I definitely do appreciate. So, if I have a very important formal text that I need or even sometimes just finding an issue potentially with code, I will sometimes lean on her for sure.

Adam Smith:

Michael and Andy, I guess it’s a little bit different artistically, but Andy, I guess being a PI and a study comes with a lot of good financial management skills these days. Maybe useful for managing the accounts. And Michael, you’re going to be designing the first book cover, right?

Andy Lashley:

Tammaryn’s always been dealing with finances ’cause she has that logical thing. For instance, for what I do, I ask her, we talk about what I’m doing in terms of whether I’m going to make a fee proposal or if I’m going to go after a different work type or something, what the implications are for us. But I never ask her to do anything writing wise in normal English ’cause she doesn’t do normal English; she does science English.

Adam Smith:

You won’t get a short, concise, nice [inaudible].

Andy Lashley:

So, I tend to have to soften the language if she writes anything for me.

Adam Smith:

I think that’s enough for now. Let’s go back to our quiz.

Okay, we’re back after the interlude with our fourth question for the quiz, and I’m going to go to Michael first this time. Michael, we asked the researcher in your life how many publications they had. How many do you think?

Michael O’Reilly:

I’m just going to bottle this one. I have no idea. I would be guessing, and I’ve got to be honest about that. Lots. I feel like she’s done lots of publications. She’s always put publications out. I can’t even put a number on it. That’s how bad my answer’s going to be for this. I’m sorry.

Adam Smith:

Well, I think, do you know what, you’ve gotten off really luckily here, because there’s no answer to that question.

Michael O’Reilly:

Oh, brilliant. I probably distracted her at that point in time, in the room with something.

Adam Smith:

You got lucky there. There’s no answer to that question. Joao, how about you? I mean, Isabelle’s an earlier career stage, I guess, and publications are really important. You’re still keeping count at that point. What did Isabelle say?

Joao Moreira:

I’m going to say publications as a first author because otherwise I have lost count for everything else.

Adam Smith:

Okay, good.

Joao Moreira:

But I’m going to say-

Adam Smith:

Good caveat.

Joao Moreira:

Four, five. Oh, no.

Adam Smith:

Higher.

Joao Moreira:

6.

Adam Smith:

6. 6.

Joao Moreira:

Yes, you can edit it out.

Adam Smith:

You were close enough. Six is-

Joao Moreira:

No, no, you can edit it out. I like to get the answer right the first time. Just kidding.

Adam Smith:

Six in peer review, Gerald. And Andrew.

Andy Lashley:

This is now the worst-case scenario, the end of my marriage.

Adam Smith:

Well, I mean we can qualify for this. So Tammaryn’s tenure professor at UCL has been around … had an extensive research career. So, this isn’t … I guess, do you still even celebrate a new first author paper being published?

Andy Lashley:

Yes, but I couldn’t tell you the number. When I say she’s high, I think she could be at a hundred or just short of that, but she could be in the hundreds for published papers.

Adam Smith:

Okay, well Tammaryn said it’s 188.

Andy Lashley:

We had talked about it recently, but I just couldn’t remember if it were over 200.

Adam Smith:

It’s just got to be so many; you just don’t celebrate success anymore. It sounds like you owe her some glass of champagne.

Andy Lashley:

Well, we have two bottles in the fridge waiting, so we’re all right.

Adam Smith:

Okay, we’ll move on to the fifth question. We asked them what job they’d do if they weren’t a dementia researcher. Joao, why don’t you go first? What did the dementia researcher in your life say to that question?

Joao Moreira:

Isabelle, she’s talked about doing so many things. She’s talked about doing everything from wedding planning, from interior designing, from photography. She’s a very ambitious person, which I do admire. So, it’s hard to put a single option out.

Adam Smith:

Well, I’m going to give you an out here. Pick one of the things you’ve just said, and you’ll get it right.

Joao Moreira:

Oh good, I’m getting close.

Adam Smith:

That’s a clue.

Joao Moreira:

Interior design might be the top one.

Adam Smith:

It was photographer or designer. So, you were close. What about you Michael?

Joao Moreira:

You can see the cameras behind me.

Michael O’Reilly:

I mean, yeah, Zanna’s very hardworking. She’s a very dedicated person, so I feel like I don’t know something… I think she likes to do something fun. I feel like she might have said either something about animals or the Glido Lido, her business, she’s got an idea for which I don’t know is the right thing to say on air. I had a conversation with her about this earlier and I was like, dude, you don’t want to put that out there ’cause someone might steal it.

Adam Smith:

Well, you’ve got that right. Running the Glido Lido, Michael will know what it means, but you don’t have to explain if this is giving away a business idea.

Michael O’Reilly:

Well, if the clue-

Adam Smith:

[inaudible].

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, yeah, it involves a lido. I think she’d like to run a business that’s just fun orientated and minimal stress I imagine.

Adam Smith:

Which is entirely fair. And Andy.

Andy Lashley:

So, give me a hint, did Tammaryn say another research thing or completely away from research?

Adam Smith:

God no, a very serious position.

Andy Lashley:

I’m lost. I would think that she might want to do research into our youngest daughter’s issues, which is chromosome deletions. And I think that would be what she probably would want to look into more than anything else. If she came away from dementia.

Adam Smith:

You’re very close. So, she would like to be a special educational needs lawyer. So, I think half a point for that.

Andy Lashley:

There you go. I’ll live with that. I’m familiar with that one as well.

Adam Smith:

I have to admit, I haven’t been keeping score, but I feel like everybody gets full marks. You were all close enough. I think Andy was definitely out on the publications one, but you all knew the jobs, you were close on careers. I think you’ve all done it remarkably well. So, let’s go back to the last questions on this podcast.

So, we’re almost out of time now, but before we finish, I want to have a final discussion just about the practicalities and dealing with the day-to-day domesticity. Is domesticity a word? I feel like it is. No, maybe not. Michael, I’m going to come to you first. How do you kind of manage home life? So, you both work pretty much full-time, you’ve got a toddler you mentioned before, and then you’ve got this partner working in dementia research. How does the day-to-day work for you at home?

Michael O’Reilly:

I think we just try to split things 50/50. And if one person’s doing one thing, the other person can do something else. We’ll try to make sure that we give each other time to ourselves. And especially with childcare, we try to make sure we’re not making it so that one person feels like they’re doing too much or getting run down from that whatever. But on a kind of bigger note rather than just the kind of everyday things, I suppose I’ve kind of helped out with a couple of fun things. I had to, because Ren was very little when Zanna needed to go to Athens for a conference. So obviously we all went, but then I just have this very vivid memory of traipsing around Athens, trying to get out of the heat with this little baby in a [inaudible] bush day, trying to get her to sleep and stuff while Zanna could do her conference and then she’d come and meet us in time off and stuff.

And then one of the other good ones that springs to mind is we’d gone on a holiday to Nice, well it was a holiday for me, Zanna was presenting a poster and I was having a nice lie in. It was nice. Get a phone call, woken up, Zanna’s like the workmen have ripped my poster. I don’t know what to do. It’s meant to be presented really soon. And obviously she was emotionally … that was difficult obviously, but equally I was like, I’ve just woken up. I don’t know what to do. So, I sprinted across town to find out where she was and then we both went and hunted out a printers in Nice, this was early in the morning, so it was before it had opened, waited outside until it opened, got a new poster printed for her and then she was able to go back. So that was another fun one. And then she also-

Adam Smith:

That’s very cool.

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah, it’s good fun. She also does sleep studies, so she … she’s finished them now, but she did a phase of doing sleep studies for participants, which meant her being out in the evenings over the course of a couple of months for a couple of days. So, I would be looking after Ren and we’d be doing bedtime together and stuff, which is another way as well.

Adam Smith:

And is there flexibility in there? I mean, I’m assuming that there’s some advanced notice and there’s this understanding that … ’cause you’ve just given two examples there where you’ve arranged holidays around conference attendance, which definitely isn’t the norm, and then having to swap things around. I guess it’s easier for you because you … I don’t know, is it easy for you ’cause you’ve got set designer, I’m imagining at some point you do actually have to go to the Royal Opera House and do stuff there.

Michael O’Reilly:

Yeah. So, we produce, and we make the designs that the designer has made, so we’ll fabricate them, paint them, make them out of metalwork, carpentry, et cetera. So, we are the makers of the people with the concept.

Adam Smith:

So, you do physically, is it not something you can do sitting at a computer at home?

Michael O’Reilly:

No, no. We’re in a workshop, a giant workshop working on the floor, firing out paint and carving giant trees and things like that. But yeah, in terms of flexibility, it definitely works the other way as well. There are times when we’ve got … things have either worked out that a build has come through to us late, so the deadline is fast approaching or we have less time on it than we would’ve expected, and Zanna has been really great at accommodating either having to look after Ren on a day off where she was meant to be off or at work or something. Or we definitely … I’m like, look, we need an extra pair of hands at work. Is there any chance I can work that day? It’s definitely flexible that way around as well.

And yeah, I do have to go up to Covent Garden sometimes to do repairs on stage, which is a longer day for me ’cause we live a bit further out, so it’s expected then that, yeah, she’ll have to probably do the bath and stuff like that, but yeah, sometimes she needs to work late so it all comes around kind of thing.

Adam Smith:

So, some give and take. What about you Andy?

Andy Lashley:

Yeah, over the years we’ve always started off with respect for each other’s jobs and flexibility in them. Tammaryn’s driven up to Nottingham at 11 o’clock at night to pick me up because me and a colleague missed the last train, which was ridiculously early as far as I was concerned. But she’s done that. There’s no batting an eyelid on how our relationship has worked out. I worked for a company that I used to design a lot of pubs and this sort of thing, and she knew when we were in our last six weeks because my communication shut down. So even when we were having our first one or two of our children, the day was so full and the horse-trading to get this because we were with the company that we were doing it for eight weeks out, you had to say this was going to be the opening date no matter what. So, everything focused on getting it done and she just knew that.

So, she knew that the first hour after I got home, just leave a clear space to allow me to just get my brain back in a different phase. And then as time went by, we got to a situation where with the kids at school, our youngest having special needs, then we decided that I would go on my own with our second child actually, we decided.

And because her career was beginning to move in a direction now where it was necessary for her to be able to put that time in and it wasn’t even a, oh, but what about me sort of situation. It was just clearly sensible … we both work on a very … I feel I’m a bit more creative, we have a very logical brain thing about how life can and should be, and so for me it was no decision at all. Get my work done, I can be in an area where I can see and look after the kids and help them where they need it and she can then go and really concentrate because the difference is I can work anywhere, she can only work in a certain place. So, it was much easier for me to sort of change my tact.

Adam Smith:

Well, we did actually, for anybody listening or watching, we did actually interview Tammaryn for the website a couple of weeks ago and that’s the interview. It’s just been published this week, which talks in far greater detail about the practicalities of day-to-day life ’cause I know things like you do the school runs and Tammaryn talks about she has a work from home day and things like that. So, if you’d like a closer look into Andrew’s domestic arrangements, you can go read that interview.

But I think the reason why this is important, I think, is because we often talk about academic careers not being standard, that there’s not one size fits all. And I think exactly the same thing. It’s clear from all of you that it’s the same when it comes to home life that you just make these things work for you. Whether you have kids, don’t have kids that what’s going on at home doesn’t have to stand in the way of academia, but there does need to be some flexibility. It’s not going to be easy to necessarily do for everybody because not everybody has jobs where they can work from home or swap or do these things, but finding ways that work for you is clearly the best. Joao, I’ll give you a chance to answer that question.

Joao Moreira:

Yeah, I don’t have that much to expect ’cause as you know, we don’t have kids so it’s much easier to balance out things. But I think overall throughout our relationship we’ve always been quite balanced in terms of delegating what each of us does at home. But since I started working remotely about three, four years ago, obviously that balance tends to shift more on my side ’cause I can pretty much wash the dishes and do the laundry pretty much anytime because my work allows me to. So, most of the time when Isabella was working on normal working hours, it’s fine. It’s usually pretty balanced. But during crunch time, I understand and sort of take on pretty much everything for a week or two if I need to. Which I don’t mind, it’s not like it takes a hundred percent of my time. Again, no kids, so it’s much easier to do it.

But yeah, it definitely tends to lean a bit more on my side. It has happened before in the past where I have had crunch time. Thankfully, it’s not as frequent as Isabelle’s for example, but Isabelle also kind of stepped in to do the same as I would do for her.

Adam Smith:

Well, you’ve all described situations where that’s worked both ways, so that’s brilliant. I’m afraid. That’s all we’ve got time for today. If you just can’t get enough of this topic, visit the Dementia Researcher website where you’ll find a full transcript biography on our guests and blogs and much more of the topic. You’ll also find the podcast we published early this week, of which Andy’s wife, Tammaryn is a guest on that show, and we’ve got interviews with some researchers as well, talking about how they manage their domestic family lives and research careers as well.

But I have one final question for all of you before we go, which is, what top tip would you have for someone who finds themselves with a partner or maybe a child or sibling who is an academic and they’re new to this, their partner’s just starting a PhD right now, or maybe their sister or their daughter is just going into academia. What advice would you give to them? Michael, I’ll go to you first.

Michael O’Reilly:

Oh man. I don’t know if I’m eligible to really give good advice, but I suppose the only thing I would say is whoever was going into research or doing it, if that’s what they’re passionate about and want to do and you love them and you want to support them in the best way you can, you got to just in the same way they probably do it for you too. You have got to encourage them, be there for them and help them in any way you can for them to be able to do it if that’s what they really want to do. And yeah, be a good sounding board like with anything, people need to sort of talk about these things. So being able to listen, I guess.

Adam Smith:

Thank you, Michael. Andy.

Andy Lashley:

Yeah, I mean open the door for them and be there for them whenever they need to talk about anything. I mean it’s pretty much communication with anybody in life, but research is and can be very rewarding and if somebody really has the heart for it, you don’t ever get in their way.

Adam Smith:

Thank you. Joao.

Joao Moreira:

I kind of have a sort of contrarian advice here to both of you, which is more, I would say, because academia tends to be a bit predatory in terms of abusing people’s time and mental capacity. So as a partner, I’d like to see more people come in and give their partners more perspective in their overall life to give them the visibility of that their lives is not just research. Obviously, research is a big part of it, but there are other things that they need to look into as well. I know researchers, this has happened to me in my job as well, tend to lose focus on the wider picture of life and just focus on work, work, work, work. I like partners to be there to be like, hey, look, I know you’re busy, but there’s all this stuff around you that you should focus on for your own sake you should focus on for a little bit.

Adam Smith:

That’s such good advice. Push back to encourage that work-life balance.

Andy Lashley:

Can I just add to that?

Adam Smith:

Yeah.

Andy Lashley:

Tammaryn and I have done that throughout our whole life. She has made me lift my head up from what I’m doing, and I’ve done the same for her. What to your point, is the fact that she has come to me quite a few times saying she’s had to stop staff going in at weekends and working and that sort of thing ’cause she never did that. That was our rule. It stopped on Friday. But that is prevalent, a lot of the younger people now are trying to make their way. They’re not being forced, but they’re getting that mindset that they have to come in on a Saturday to do more work or a Sunday to do something when I consider that quite unfair on their psyche for a start.

Adam Smith:

So, I think the overall takeaway here is to encourage them, support them. It’s brilliant work that they’re doing. Recognizing that there are going to be highs and lows, but you can again, be there for them to do that. If you’ve got practical skills, you can offer to proofread stuff, do things, also as well, be prepared for the instability. The potential that there might not be a job in six months’ time, but you’ve got to work through it and encourage that wellbeing and work-life balance that researchers often lose sight of. Thank you so much. This has been brilliant. I’d like to thank our incredible guests, Andy Lashley, Michael O’Reilly, and Joao Moreira. I’m Adam Smith and you’ve been listening to the Dementia Researcher Podcast. Thank you.

Andy Lashley:

Take care guys. Good to meet you over here. Take care. Thanks.

Voice Over:

The Dementia Researcher Podcast was brought to you by University College London with generous funding from the UK National Institute for Health Research, Alzheimer’s Research UK, Alzheimer’s Society, Alzheimer’s Association, and Race Against Dementia. Please subscribe, leave us a review, and register on our website for full access to all our great resources. Dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk.

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