Podcast – Managing Family Life and a Research Career – Reunion

Voice Over:

Welcome to the Dementia Researcher podcast, brought to you by University College London, and the NIHR, in association with Alzheimer’s Research UK, Alzheimer’s Society, Race Against Dementia, and the Alzheimer’s Association, supporting early career dementia researchers, across the world.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Hello and welcome back to the Dementia Research podcast. The show delves deep into brilliant minds, dedicated to unraveling the mysteries of dementia, and helping you to successfully navigate your own career, in the field. I’m Professor Heather Mortiboys, and it’s my pleasure to be here to host a very special reunion episode, that’s bound to be filled with laughter, insights, and perhaps a few surprises.

So let me set the scene. Five years ago, we had the pleasure of chatting with four incredible researchers, who not only shared their groundbreaking work in dementia research, but also gave us a glimpse into their lives, as super humans, balancing career success, and family life. Today we’re reuniting, to catch up on the whirlwind that has been the last half decade, asking what’s changed, if they stand by their original advice, and what new tips they can share, and I might also chip in with some nuggets of my own.

Joining us once again, are the brilliant minds that left us inspired and eager for more. Professor Tammaryn Lashley, whose passion for unraveling the intricacies of the brain’s inner workings, continues to astound us. Doctor Gemma Lace, whose [inaudible] dedication to finding innovative solutions, has earned her a spot in our hearts, and in the [inaudible] of dementia research. Dr. Jo Barnes, the mastermind behind groundbreaking breakthroughs, proved that even amid life’s chaos, scientific brilliance knows no bounds. And last, but no means, certainly least, Dr. Angelique Mavrodaris, whose relentless pursuit of knowledge, has taken her to new heights, and inspired countless others, along the way. So, hello everyone. Was that intro, a bit much for you all? Yeah? [inaudible]

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

It was great. Thanks Heather.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Well, now that I’ve given you that bit of introduction, maybe you guys can do some proper introductions for yourself. So Tammaryn, why don’t we start with you. Can you tell us a bit about yourself and your work?

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

Sure. Thanks Heather. Yep. So, hi everybody. My name’s Tammaryn Lashley. So, I am based at UCL. Most of my work is based around using postmortem human brain tissue, to look at the underlying mechanisms of different neurodegenerative diseases. I guess you don’t really think things change year in and year out but having just sort of thought about the last five years, actually quite a lot has changed, in the last five years. So, I’ve been promoted to professor. Professor of Neuroscience. I’m now the Research Director of the Queen Square Brain Bank and have just been appointed as Graduate Tutor of the Institute of Neurology. So, a lot has changed from a work point of view. My team’s grown a little bit, which is great. I’ve got amazing postdocs, and students, that work in the team, and during the last five years, the kids have got, obviously, five years older.

And so, I’ve got three children, as we heard in the last podcast. My oldest turns 22 this year. My son is 19, and the youngest will be 15, this year. So yeah, they keep me busy, and had the first two, whilst doing my PhD, and the little one while I was doing a postdoc. So yeah, I’m very familiar with work life balance, but I guess we can cover more, throughout the podcast.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Thanks very much, Tammaryn. Yeah, you’ve obviously got a lot on your plate that you balance really well. Gemma, can we come to you next?

Dr Gemma Lace:

Yeah, thank you very much. Yes, my name’s Gemma Lace, and I’m based at the University of Salford. My research is really interested in why you get junk building up, in the brains of people, with a whole heap of neurodegenerative diseases. And I’m also really interested in how the process of disease spreads from one region of the brain, to the other. Really interesting little vesicles in the brain, that carry all sorts of bits and bobs, which can be involved in disease.

So, workwise, things have changed massively over the last five years. I now have a leadership role in the School of Science, Engineering and Environment. So, I’m the Associate Dean of Student Experience, which is fab for me, because that’s my favorite bit, is working with students, and helping students go out into the world, and be passionate about science. And research-wise, I’ve got different grants to continue my work. So, I’m got some money from the Alzheimer’s Society, which is fantastic. My research groups got bigger and, I guess, in my home life, that has also evolved quite a lot, over the last five years. As Tam says, the kids are growing up, and the grown-ups [inaudible] really fast, and I’ve also managed to acquire an additional child. Now I didn’t grow this one myself, he’s my stepson, but I got remarried. So, in the last five years, there seems to be a lot of change there, but all good, positive change.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Great, thanks very much, Gemma. Jo, can we come to you next?

Dr Jo Barnes:

Hi there. Yeah, so a lot has happened to me in the last five years, in terms of work. So, I work a lot with Tammaryn, nowadays. We do a lot of path work together, which is fantastic. My work is really around the imaging side of cerebrovascular disease, and how that has a sort of interaction with Alzheimer’s pathology. So that’s the area that I’m really interested in. So that’s been great, and we’ve had a number of students go through both Tammaryn and my supervisorship, which is fantastic. And in addition to that, I’m now the Faculty Graduate Tutor. It sounds like your role, Gemma, actually. So, it is really about student experience, and making sure that that’s good, within our faculty. So that’s the Faculty of Brain Sciences. So, there’s about a thousand PhD students, and professional doctoral students. So, it is quite a big group of students that we look after.

So that’s really good and I really enjoyed that, too. There’s a lot of problem solving for students, and with the tutors at the departmental level, but I really like that. It’s good fun and hopefully, makes a positive difference for people. So that’s workwise, how things have changed. At home, I’ve got two children, one is now 11, so just about to start secondary, and the youngest one is seven. And so, I think the biggest thing there, in the last year, my eldest got a diagnosis of autism, so that has been a big thing for us to deal with, and I don’t mean that in a totally negative way. It’s been really good to have that diagnosis to better understand him, and he understands himself a lot better. So that’s one thing. And my daughter who’s seven, has got quite profound hearing problems, as well.

So, it was very interesting in lockdown, homeschooling two kids, by myself, where one of them shouts a lot because she can’t hear, and then the older one doesn’t like noise. You can imagine it was great fun, but they actually get on really well. So, we’re a happy little unit, so that’s us, really. So, lots have really changed for us, both for our family, and also, at work.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Thanks very much, Jo. I’m sure we’ll get into some of those things later. Angelique, can we come to you, to tell us about yourself?

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

It’s great to be here, with all of you again. So, I’m a little bit of a hybrid. I’m a researcher, a public health researcher, based at the University of Cambridge. And my work is looking specifically at the interaction between dementia and infections, and then, more broadly, in socioeconomic and policy contexts. So really, really enjoying that. I’m excited to update you guys on how that’s all going. I’m also a public health doctor or consultant. So, I work alongside, doing my research at the UK Health Security Agency, and that’s a national role, very much about taking research and science, and translating that into policy and action. So, I really love that. It’s my passion to work across the two, and to bridge academia and practice policy, so really busy but really, really enjoying it. And it’s good for my brain, as well, because it gets bored easily.

So that’s been good. I think the last time we came together, I was just starting my PhD, and at this point, due to submit, in two weeks’ time. So that’s been an interesting journey and kind of stressful, at this point. It’s also been interesting, in a sense, I suppose, especially from a public health perspective, in that we had COVID in between. So, I took a year out of academic work, to go back into full-time practice, to support that, and it will be good to share some of that.

In terms of where I am, in personal life, I think, at that point, as well, when it came together, I just had my little girl. She’s now five, going on six. So, we’ve navigated babyhood, going to nursery, COVID, and then, starting school as well, which I think has been more of a transition for me, than it has for her. She’s been great, but so much has come with it, and so much change and transition, I think. So that’s been interesting, wonderful, but such a sharp learning curve, more than anything has ever taught me.

More on a personal status, as well. I guess, when we came together, it hadn’t happened yet, but my partner and I decided to go our separate ways, which was tough, but the right thing for us. The timing was a bit off. It happened just before COVID. So I went into lockdown, as a single parent, but we’re now, my little girl and I are good, and we found a really, really good balance, so that’s been good. I wouldn’t say it’s tougher than what anyone on the call is navigating, it’s just different though, and that’s fine, but I’m really glad to be here, to be able to share that perspective, because it is different. So, anything that I can contribute would feel good for me. So, I think that’s me.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Thank you so much everybody. So, I’m just going to add a little bit about myself. So, I didn’t host the last one, but I’m Heather, and my research is based around mitochondria, and trying to investigate if they go wrong, how they go wrong, and how that contributes to lots of different neurodegenerative diseases. So, Parkinson’s, different forms of dementia, as well as motor neuron disease. And I also hold the role of Faculty Director of Knowledge, Exchange, and Innovation. So, I am very much thinking about how the university interacts with external partners, whether that be working with industry, whether that be local engagement, national engagement, international engagement. So that’s a really exciting part of my role, as well, on top of the research, and the teaching, and everything else that comes along with academic life. And then, on the personal front, then I also have two boys, who are almost 14 and nine now.

So, I may chip in, some experiences, and maybe some nuggets of advice, from my own point of view, as we go through the podcast, as well. So, during the podcast, we’re going to delve into the significant events that have unfolded in everyone’s lives, over the past five years, that you really nicely just introduced. If you guys have experienced anything unexpected. If your perspectives have shifted, maybe, from what you discussed last time, five years ago, and most importantly, what invaluable advice have you got to share with the listeners today? So, for listeners who didn’t listen to the original show, then you can pause now, go find it, and go for a listen, and there’ll be some links, in the show notes, for this one. But for those of you that aren’t able to do that, keep on listening, and we’ve got some highlights for you coming up now.

Dr Jo Barnes:

Hello, my name is Jo Barnes. This week, we’ll be looking at a rather hot topic, which is how to manage family life, and a successful research and academic career. We have Gemma Lace Costigan, we’ve got Tammaryn Lashley, and we have Dr. Angelique Mavrodaris.

Dr Gemma Lace:

So, I’m Gemma Lace Costigan and I’m from the University of Salford. I’m a biomedical science lecturer. I’ve got two kids. I’ve got a seven-year-old girl called Eve, and a four-year-old boy called Jax.

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

So, I’m Tammaryn Lashley. I’m a principal research fellow, at Queen Square Brain Bank at UCL. Outside of work, I’ve got three children. Eden who’s 16, Ethan 14, and Erin, who’s nine. So, they keep me busy outside of work. Yeah.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

I’m Angelique, and I’m a clinical research fellow, based at the Institute of Public Health, in Cambridge. I’m a new mom. My little girl is eight months old. Her name is Venya. And this is a mini disclaimer, as well, because I’m still seriously suffering from the effects of baby brain.

Dr Jo Barnes:

And just to say a bit about me, my name’s Jo Barnes. I work at the Dementia Research Center, which is in Queen Square, part of the ION, the Institute of Neurology, part of UCL. I have a six-year-old boy, who’s at school, and a two-year-old girl, who’s still at nursery. I would say that this ideology of work-life balance is something that is up for discussion. I think, at any given time, it’s very difficult to have what people assume is a work-life balance and, me personally, I tend to fluctuate between being really wrapped up in work, and a hundred percent head in the zone, and then snap out of it again, so that I can hopefully be a decent parent. It is difficult, but as long as you stay organized, plans. I’ve got lists coming out of my ear. Work lists, home lists, kids’ lists, that never get completed. But you just live with that, and you just move on, from day-to-day, and just do the best you can, each day, really, and don’t feel guilty about anything because you just can’t, and you just wouldn’t [inaudible].

So, I’ve had to be a lot stronger about managing expectations, both at work, with myself, as well, in saying that you can get to some things, you won’t get to some things, it’s okay. So, it’s just trying to understand, and be quite open about what you can achieve, with all your bosses, with yourself, with your partner, etcetera, and then trying to do your best, to make it work. I was thinking when the last time was, I felt guilty, and I think it was last year, when my son was Joseph, in the nativity play, and I couldn’t go because I had to do a Viva, which that’s somebody’s exam, I can’t ask them to reschedule that. So, I said to my son, “I’m really sorry but I’m not going to make it.”

Dr Gemma Lace:

You’ve just got to prioritize. You’ve got to look and see, what’s most important, at any given time, and weigh it all up, and make plans for when you know that you’re going to miss something. Just have something in the pipeline then. So, if you’re going to miss a play, for example, like you just said, then, “Okay, so we go to the seaside, at the weekend, and we eat too much ice cream.” So, I had my son, while I was at Salford, and I was absolutely supported, all the way through it. And I think it’s definitely an upward movement now, towards talking and addressing issues associated with equality.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

So, sleep as much as you can, and get [inaudible]. Find your way to a movement of people, surround yourself by nice people, and be nice to yourself.

So hopefully, you listen to those. I will also, briefly, just recap the main points. So, all of our guests, last time, have become incredibly successful researchers. They’re also Moms to one or more children, and their top tips, five years ago, included, there’s no perfect time to start a family, that you just have to roll with life, and get on with it. Get as much sleep as you can, whenever you can. Find your cheer team, and lots of mentors. Even if you feel like you’re meddling through, you just need to take one day at a time. There were plenty more nuggets in there, as well. So, if you do have chance to listen to the original show again, I would recommend it, but let’s get on with today. Let’s start with catch-up.

So, everybody’s given us a bit of an introduction there, but can everyone tell us a little bit about what’s been going on at home, and what has happened for the past five years, and how you’ve been managing that elusive work-life balance? Quite a lot has happened, hasn’t it, with the lockdown? I think we were probably quite good at multitasking five years ago, but now we can do it to an extreme. We had to juggle work, we had to juggle the homeschooling of maybe kids of different ages. And I think one thing that I’ve realized, over the last five years, even more so than where I was before, is the importance of self-care and self-management. And being able to just give yourself that head space, to connect to yourself, to really think about what you need to do, to keep juggling those various balls, that we’ve had to do over the last couple of years, particularly.

And yeah, it’s been quite five years, hasn’t it? And we’ve all had to relearn how we do things, and figure out how to do things from scratch, using different technologies, with very different connections to people. And as well as us having to do that, with respect to our work, and figure out how we continue to research, and contribute to the research community, via teams, remotely. We’ve also had to navigate that, whilst teaching our kids to do the same, and supporting our kids to engage with this new version of the world. So, it certainly has been somewhat of a growth curve for everyone, I think.

Does anyone else want to chip in on those points that Gemma made with dealing with time management and multitasking during COVID?

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

Yeah, I can chip in. I agree with what Gemma has just said. I think it has been a steep learning curve, but I think we can look at it, as positive, especially as working parents. It’s nowhere to where we’re all used to all these new ways of working and technology. I think it will actually be beneficial to those with children, or caring responsibilities, to stay ahead of, or stay competitive in the research field, with being able to join meetings remotely, being able to attend conferences remotely. I’ve just had major surgery, having both knees replaced. Don’t ever do that. And so, I’ve not been able to attend conferences, in person, because my recovery’s been really slow, but I’ve been able to log in online, and attend them all, virtually. So, I’ve not missed out on the scientific content of the meeting. Obviously, missed out on the personal interactions with collaborators, but it meant I could still keep my fingers in all the pies, listening to all the talks, and everything. So, I think that’s been a real game changer.

If anything, positive has come out of the COVID years, then I think, from that point of view, we can all benefit from the virtual world. So that’s been a positive for me, over the last five years. Double knee surgery, not so much, but virtual world, yes.

Dr Jo Barnes:

I think one of the downsides is that I don’t mean to be the harbinger of doom, or anything like that. One of the downsides is your kind of on-call all the time, and I think that that needs management too, so that, as Gemma says, you take care of yourself. So, I have regular meetings, at weird hours, with the US, and Australia now, and it’s fantastic, but it’s also quite disturbing to personal life. So, it’s finding that balance to make sure that your workday doesn’t just extend to all hours of the day, is really important. I’m glad I don’t live in Australia, in many ways, because I think they get the rough end of all of those international meetings. It’s always at a difficult time for them, a really difficult time.

But that’s one thing that I think is a real positive, but it’s also got its sort of negative things you’ve got to manage. And I think that’s it. It’s about managing it. So, I think I’ve got better at compartmentalizing things, as opposed to trying to do a couple of things at once. I think I’m better at setting times for doing things, and saying, “Actually today, if I only manage to do this, apart from my emails, then that is fine, and that is good.” And that’s being a bit more realistic, I think. And also, self-care, as well. So, I don’t feel really frustrated with my time. So that’s what I think I’ve learned.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

It would be really great to come back to the self-care point that Gemma sort of raised. But just on the COVID specific point, I found it almost, it was quite surprising, in a sense. I mean, nobody knew what to expect, but what I found surprising was maybe because we were locked down, and maybe because we were forced to take a pause, in some way, or some things amplified, and others went away. I found it really kind of crystallizing what meant something to me, and what was important to me, and what priorities were, or were not. And because work was going crazy, and a lot of our public health structures were also changing, it was just really striking and clear, just to see what are the things that really hold. And what you really need to consolidate, and have strength, all the time, in a world that’s constantly changing, and altering, and behaving, in such an unexpected way.

So, I found that just really good, in a way, as a moment to reflect, because I think with most people, you never get that time to reflect. We’re always running, from one thing to the next, but that experience, and that time, really forced me to think about some things. And even though I don’t always get to put them into practice and action, on a day-to-day basis, a lot of that has stayed with me, and it’s changed the way that I approach, and think about what I want to be as a parent, and as a scientist, and as a woman. So yeah, really interesting things that came from a really bizarre experience.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Yeah, so I would just echo, and I think this will bring us back around to the self-care point, that Gemma raised, and Angelique, that you wanted to go back to. I think there’s a lot of positives that I could take from that experience, some of which you’ve raised. But I would say, as Jo had risen, I think afterwards, when then things started to open up, and started to get back to normal, and kids’ activities started up again, as well. And so, then all of a sudden, there were all of the activities that there had been before, in addition to this expectation that you are always on, because you can join things virtually. That is not to make it usual, that when the kids get up, Mommy is downstairs working on her laptop, on a call, and has been doing that since 4:00 AM, and then when the kids go to bed, Mommy is still there on her laptop, working.

So, I think that that is something that I’ve had to make sure I take time and manage myself. And I think that comes to the point that Gemma started off on, which maybe we can just circle back to now, and get each of you to give some perspectives on, is actually you managing your successful career, managing your family, but taking the time out to have some self-care, as well? So maybe if each of you can give us a comment, and discussion on that.

Dr Gemma Lace:

I’m happy to go first. Yeah, the self-care thing is, it’s essential. You can’t do the juggling. You cannot look after your teams, your students, and yourself, your families, if you don’t just take that breathing space to step back and appreciate that your self-care might look very different to other people’s self-care. You do what you need to do, and experiment with what works for you, and what doesn’t work. And I remember, in lockdown, I kept seeing people who were developing quite new and interesting hobbies, and not everyone had to learn German, or learn how to play a flute in lockdown because that was what people seemed to be doing. And I know that there were sometimes where I felt really in control, and on it, and I was doing Joe Wicks, and juggling the kids’ stuff in the meetings, and then other times, I was in the downstairs toilet, angry, eating custard creams, with the door shut, desperately hoping everyone would just leave me alone for a minute.

And I think, through that process, that ability to set those boundaries, to protect your own head space, and protect when you were on, and when you were off, and manage the expectations of others, I think we have evolved substantially since we went to the new normal, where yeah, we do interact via Teams, and we do attend in-person activities, as well. But managing that, I think we’ve all learned what worked for us in COVID, and what didn’t, and I think that’s where the effort needs to be is, right? We need to think about that, from our own different perspectives, and what works for our families. And our families are really unique, and the needs of our children are very unique, and the needs of us, as individuals, are very unique. And putting that in together, into a recipe, that works for us, and allows us not just to survive, and I don’t like the term work-life balance, really, because it almost puts on a little bit of a vibe that it’s a struggle.

And I remember doing a talk, many years ago, where I spoke about that, and afterwards, I thought, “I shouldn’t have used the word struggle. We shouldn’t be surviving.” How do you survive a PhD? How do we survive as a scientist? We shouldn’t be surviving anything. We should be embracing it. We should be living it. We should be loving it, and learning how to set those boundaries, to protect our time, and that precious time with our families, and the precious time with our students, and our teams, and making it a joy, rather than something that we need to survive.

Dr Jo Barnes:

Yeah, it’s finding a way to thrive, isn’t it? I think that’s it that. Yeah. I think during lockdown, at times, it definitely was survival. It was just trying to get through, and my partner was not here because of his work. He had to be out. So, when you are by yourself, with your children, and also trying to work, at other weird times of the day, it makes me feel very uncomfortable at times, actually, and you lose perspective of yourself. But in doing that, I think it’s quite a helpful experience, in retrospect, because then you know that you cannot go there again. It’s not somewhere you need to be and finding that place where you can actually enjoy things is really crucial. It’s really crucial to being able to maintain a career for however many decades before we retire. So yeah, are we going to do a retirement one, by the way?

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

We should schedule it in.

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

I guess, for me, I never really thought about self-care, through COVID, because my youngest has got quite severe additional needs, and she was diagnosed type one diabetic, at the beginning of the lockdown, as well. So that was a steep learning curve, with working out carb ratios, insulin ratios, etcetera, etcetera. She’s three years in now, but I think we’re still learning all about diabetes. Every day is different from the previous one. I think, for me, my thinking about my self-care, hit after my major surgery, and I had to put time in for myself, and my rehab, to be able to walk again, because I just lost the ability to balance and walk.

So, I think having such an amazing home team, with my kids, and my husband, just seeing them support me, taking me to rehab because obviously, I couldn’t drive. And just building myself back up, from hitting a brick wall, physically, and mentally, that I think for me, is that the last nine months of the period, that now I do put my exercise, and my rehab, before my work. I schedule those in, before any meetings, so I make sure I go to hydrotherapy, to get myself back up and running. But yeah, it’s been a hard slug, and I now realize that kids need my time, as well. But that’s only over the last nine months, I guess. We just carried on the conveyor belt during COVID, to make sure my youngest was supported with her lessons and teaching, which was incredibly difficult because she couldn’t go to school and access all the special needs teachers. But yeah, I would say we did survive COVID but now we do have a better work life balance, due to my surgery, which if there’s any benefit from that, then that’s put that in place, which is good.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

One of the reasons why I really wanted to come back to the self-care point is because when I first started thinking about it, and it’s strange, maybe because I went from sort of baby zero to now five, six, and the stages, and needs have changed. My kind of role, and the way I respond to them has changed, and transitioned so rapidly, as well. So, I catch myself reflecting on these things, a lot, and the minute I think I’ve got it clocked, it changes again, and I’ve got to reassess, and repackage myself, and reorientate myself. But one of the things that just gets me often, when I do think, or do self-care, is the struggle with maternal guilt. And that’s something we all feel, and feel it a lot, and it’s difficult to let go. And I often go from thinking I’m doing really well on one domain, and then all the others are completely suffering.

So, whether it’s maternal guilt, or not performing as well as you can, in a job, or having to leave something unfinished, where you normally would’ve perfected something, or delivering a lecture that’s not as great as it could have been, because you were up all night. That balance, which again, I find a tricky word because I feel balance is a picture of everything going well, at the same time, and we don’t tend to see that in a longer-term way. Things ebb and flow, and come and go, and change, but overall, it’s that overall balance, that I feel is important. But what I think I’ve come to, in the past five years, which has been useful for me, is going from a place of I should be doing self-care, I should be doing this, I need to be doing this. And so many people are doing so many things, and there’s so many examples of what you should be and need to be.

It’s been a good period for me, to think about what really works for me. And I think, Gemma, you said it, that self-care looks different for everyone, and thinking about what that needs to look like for me, and my little girl, and then, being confident, and believing that that’s what’s right for us. And a colleague actually said it really well, the other day. She said, “Just remember you’re running your own race. It doesn’t matter what others are doing. It doesn’t matter what social media is telling you, etcetera. It’s your race, and your priorities, and the things that work well for you.” And I can’t say I always kind of hold that, but I’m really trying to, because that’s what keeps me in balance, is thinking these are the things that are good for us, and good for me, and good for her. And I keep those at my center.

So, whether it’s running, or going to work, or helping with homework, or girls’ night with her, watching mermaids, and having chips, it’s that balance, that ebb and flows. And that feeling good that, and being kind to yourself, about doing the best you can, within your priorities, and what’s important to you.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

And it’s a really long race. I think that’s the thing, it’s not a race where you can just say, “Well, I can get to this point and then I’ll be fine. I’ll just keep bashing, and bashing, and bashing away at stuff,” because it’s years, and years, and years, and that’s why you just can’t keep it, at that really high level, all the time, across everything you do. You have to keep checking yourself, and making sure that things are actually okay, and being kind to yourself. Absolutely. A hundred percent.

Dr Gemma Lace:

And our needs are changing. The needs of our kids change, our careers change, and so that term, balance, again, it’s not really, it’s more of a wobble, and it will wobble in different directions, and I think once you accept it’s always going to be a wobble, but as long as you’re happy with that wobble, and you know that you’re not going to fall off, that’s fine. Because as your careers change, and as you take on different projects, and get more kids, or get more responsibilities at work, everything will constantly need to be reshuffled, and reorganized, and you constantly need to evaluate what’s going to work, given your change in circumstances. I think there were periods of, in lockdown, where things did stay a little bit still, and so there was more time for reflection. But then as we came out of lockdown, things were very rapidly evolving, and we had to become very adaptable and responsive, and that adaptability and responsiveness, to the ever-changing climate, made us more resilient, and we shouldn’t forget that.

And we see that in our kids, as well, is actually more resilient than we give ourselves credit for, and we shouldn’t forget that. And when we do have those wobbles, that come with having a house full of children, or a big mad dog, in my instance, as well, is that we know that we can adapt, and we’re good at it, and it’ll be all right. We just need to keep at it. Tam’s a classic example of someone who just absolutely keeps at it, and your surgeries that you had this year, Tam, that’s a massive thing to go through, and then to still be doing all the amazing stuff you do, is just [inaudible]

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

I like what you said Gemma about embracing, as well, because we should embrace the wobble, because the wobble is sometimes, it’s good. It keeps us on our toes, it’s healthy. The wobble makes you question, and think, and reevaluate, in a sense. So yeah, I’m totally going to go for embracing the wobble.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

The new slogan for our podcast, embrace the wobble. Thank the wobble. So, you talked about, in the last podcast, maternal guilt, which Angelique, you just mentioned there, and you also talked about, you need to find your own way. That it’s not the same, what works for you, doesn’t work for everyone else. So, I wonder whether I’m going to put each one of you on the spot here. Have you got one typical strategy, that you have found, that you’ve managed to adopt, that works well for you, and perhaps the other people can try that for themselves, and see whether it works well for them?

Dr Jo Barnes:

I think for me, is actually managing my expectations much better, so that I’m not so frustrated if I can’t get stuff done. That’s the biggest thing that I think I’ve learned. So actually, yes, I’ve got a list, that’s extremely long, of things that I need to get done, but actually having one thing, that I do in a day, and if I tick that off, that’s fantastic. I’ve heard people talk about to-done lists as well as to-do lists, where you have a list of all the things you’ve done recently, and I think that is good, and it can spur you on because if all you’re looking at is the things that you need to do, then that can sometimes be a bit much. So, for me, it’s just managing my expectations, about what I can realistically achieve, knowing that I’m going to be interrupted, in a particular day. I think that, yeah, that’s what I have learned.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

I mean it could be, it’s a bunch of things, but I think the one maybe, I want to come back to, is having a tribe around you, people around you that lift you up, that bring joy into your life, that celebrate you, that are around you, to support you, and love you, and keep you sane, or shake you when you need to be. I think I’ve got an amazing group of people around me, and I don’t know how I could do things without them, and it’s really easy to get sucked in, to your day-to-day, and doing what you kind of need to do. But I think having, for me, certainly having those people, that just brings so much joy and delight, and brings me back to that when I might lose it, is a lifesaver. So definitely, my top [inaudible]

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

I think, for me, it would have to be trying to keep everything in perspective. I don’t always do it, but my PhD supervisor, if I was having a bit of a rant, because things weren’t going right, or processes weren’t working, or whatever, he would just come back to we are just a mere blip, in the whole atmosphere. So just brings everything back to perspective, that even though we might think things are huge deals, or whatever we’ve got to sort out, but if you break things down, and put it into perspective, then we can work through everything, and we can get things done. And yeah, just keeping that realization that it may not be such a big deal, after all. And like Angelique says, having your team, I couldn’t do anything of what I’m doing, without my husband, and the kids, being super supportive of what I do. And I would like to try and work on what Jo said, but I don’t always because I get frustrated with my to-do list, but I could try and work on that one.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Gemma, do you have a top [inaudible]?

Dr Gemma Lace:

I think what everyone else has said is really fantastic points. So, I think I’ll bring it back to that one about self-care, and securing your own oxygen mask, before you start worrying about everyone else’s because if you do give yourself that little bit of space, to look after yourself, you’re just going to be so much more productive at work. You’re going to be such a happier, more enthusiastic Mormon partner, and it’s just a little bit of energy, putting into setting those boundaries, and protecting yourself, so that you can be the best version of yourself. And often people focus on the things that they absolutely need to get done, that are on the to-do list, and they forget about their professional development, and making sure that there is time for that, to give you some space to grow, as well. Not just to recover but also, “Okay, so what am I doing to make myself better, and stronger, and wiser, and smarter, and kinder,” and just investing in yourself, and that can be part of that self-care package.

It doesn’t have to be all yoga, and bubble baths. It can be, “Right, you know what, I’m going to sit, and I’m going to put myself on a course. I’m going to read a book. I’m going to surround myself with really creative, intelligent, positive women who are going to make me feel good about myself and enable me to have a good laugh.” And all that forms part of what we would consider self-care, as well. So, I’ll stick to self-care, make space for yourself, look after yourself, and then you’ll be just a better human, all around.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Brilliant. Well, I’m going to change [inaudible] slightly, for the next question, and go more onto the women academia side of things. So, there’s been a great deal of progress made in attracting more women into sciences. A recent [inaudible] UK publication last year showed that women now occupy more than 60% of research positions. Yet, at the current rate, we won’t have equality in senior positions, or professorships, until almost 2050. And so, one of the reasons for this could be the leaky mid-career stage pipeline, and I just wondered if I could get each of your views on this, and what you think can be done about it, so that we can get to that goal, earlier than 2050.

Dr Gemma Lace:

I think we have touched on a little bit about this previously, now we’ve seen some improvements, as a consequence of COVID. And conferences, you can now engage remotely, if you’ve got your children younger children, you can still attend. But I think we’ve got a huge way to go with respect to making work truly flexible, and truly inclusive. There’s been a lot of effort, over the last decade, I would say, at doing some of the more box ticking activities, but we need to make these senior positions more attractive to young talent, and we need to be really doing some genuine work to kick down the barriers, that are stopping young talented women, from applying for the more senior roles, because of fear of success.

This is why, “Oh, if I’m successful, people will think I’m a different person, and they will think this about me. Gosh, how will my world change?” Fear of failure, fear of getting it wrong, fear of judgment, fear of the impact. If we can address that fear, and do more work with our younger community, to address that fear, to get rid of those, and to identify the barriers, and kick them down, not just put a blanket over it, and try to cover them up, then I think that that will help us get more people applying, in the first case, to these positions. And then, it’s about having that strong mentorship and support provision, once people are in those positions, as well.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

I can hop in. So again, so much we could say here. I think, for me, being an advocate for change is a huge one. I think there’s still a long way to go, in terms of infrastructure, perceptions, clearly, but I think part of it is because we still don’t understand a lot of the challenges. We don’t talk about a lot of challenges. We just get on with things, and we just do it because we’re good at it, and we’re built to do it. But I think being able to talk more about how things might need to change and how we can do better is so important. Not just in terms of driving change and thinking about solutions but also in terms of inspiring other women about what it could look like, and what a different world might look like. So, for me, I know we’re busy. We’ve got way too much on. We’ve got zero time, but for me, this is something that I’ve prioritized, because I feel it’s important, and I want to be part of a change.

So many women have done it, to get us to where we are, and I just feel there’s so much more that we can contribute to that. I’m a mentor, for women in STEM, at my university, and on a diversity panel, in my workplace, as well. And I can tell you, it’s part of, I think, clearly, one of the most enriching sorts of aspects of my life, where I feel like “Yes, we’re moving forward, and I’m part of that.” So, for me, I think attaching ourselves to movements like that, and giving the insights that we’re giving here, and inspiring, is really important.

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

I think for me, that’s why I took on the graduate tutor role at the Institute of Neurology is to… I think I was in a privileged position myself, of having such a supportive PhD student boss mentor. I actually share an office with him now, even though he retired 10 years ago, but he still works, and we still collaborate. I think, too, to see the ordeal some students have, during their PhDs, and as early postdocs, is horrifying to me, that people don’t have the same chance that I had. And that supervisor, teaching you a skill, that has stood me in good [inaudible] for my career, moving forward. And what I’d like to do as the graduate tutor is provide students with that platform, that they can springboard onto the next job, next role, whether that is in academia, or whether that’s outside of academia, but to champion them, and give them the support needed for them to go onto the next steps.

We have students that have inadequate supervision and that need to change. I think we can change that and give them the platforms they need to know that they can take the next steps. They are able to take the next steps, and they’re able to move on to whatever careers they want to move on to, I think, is vitally important. And as Angelique said, we literally have no time, but if we can plant a seed in one person’s head, that can go onto the next level, I think we need to do that. Purely, some of the mentorship that I’ve had, I need to pass that on, and pass that forward to the next generation.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Gemma, anything that you want to add.

Dr Gemma Lace:

I think following on from what Tammaryn said there, it’s about the quality of experience that the younger generation coming through has, whether they’re a PhD student, or a postdoc, it’s ensuring that they do have opportunities, and they are listened to. When you’re in a tutor role at a university, and it’s similar to Gemma’s role, you must hear lots of poor experience that goes on, and you’re hoping that that’s the worst end of things, and actually most people have a really good experience, but we are still seeing people leave. And I work on an EDI panel, as well, within our institute, and we’ve seen people leave the parents of carers group because when they’ve come back from mat leave, their projects changed, and things like that, which doesn’t push them out but there’s no reason to stay, and I think that that’s it. It’s making sure that there are really good destinations for people, within academia, and even professional services that support academia, to make sure that people can see themselves in those roles, but they’re actually really supported all the way through.

A lot of the work that we’ve done, as well, has been on minimizing the impacts that going on carer’s leave, actually has on her career, is going to have some impact. It can’t have any impact whatsoever, but make sure it’s not disproportionate to the time you take off. So that, for example, when you’re pregnant you are obviously pregnant, people don’t give you projects, and so forth, and then you are away for up to a year, potentially. And then when you come back, nobody’s giving you projects again, or interacting with you. That could be one year off but you actually, you have an impact for up to three years, and it’s minimizing those things as well, to make sure that people are enjoying their jobs, and actually find it really rewarding, and that they can see a path forward. And I think that’s the problem. A lot of people are not seeing that path forward, within universities, and within academia, and I think that’s the big push, to make people go somewhere else.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Just speaking up on points that all of you made there, do you think there’s specific things that could be put in place? I’m thinking of, perhaps, helping with childcare costs, and some of you raised, that you try to work from home one day, hoping that would help with the childcare costs. Could there be something done specifically there? Could there be specific grants, so that people actually can get those projects that they want, and can find that way forward themselves, if it’s not immediately obvious to them? Do you think there’s specific things that we, as a community, could do, and that universities could do?

Dr Gemma Lace:

Yeah, I think childcare is a big issue, and I think removing those obvious barriers, the conditions associated with some of the grants, and more importantly, the application process. So, where you see there’s, a time restrict, it must be X number of years, after finishing a PhD, or I must have only been in academia, y number of years. That’s not helpful when someone has taken maternity leave, or multiple maternity leaves. It’s not helpful. It is a barrier that we should not be using. We should be making sure that funding grants are awarded to talent, that’s where it should go, and putting on various restraints on who can apply, and when they can apply, that doesn’t help someone who is juggling a career, and a family life because having a family can be quite turbulent, and therefore, it’s been great to see the introduction of more grants, and the removal of some submission deadlines on grants, so that it’s a rolling application process, that has made the application process more accessible for people who’ve got very different commitments, even taking family life out of that.

But when we think of life as an academic, where you might have leadership roles, you might have your teaching responsibilities, as well as your research career that you are managing, removing those kinds of strengths, is what is important, and not being afraid of speaking up, when we see something that is clearly going to have an impact on people, who are trying to juggle careers and family life.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

I think for me, I’m quite surprised, at the sort of logistical things that we could really fix quite easily. The sort of logistics, the flexibility, the lessons that I think, Gemma, you mentioned, that we learned through COVID. So, things like after hours events, that I would love to get to have a virtual option. We can do it. It’s not hard. We’ve done it for a long time. Make that a standard offer, or otherwise have them within office hours because there’s no reason why we need to be pushing like that. I need to fetch my kid from school at 3:15, every day. This is, again, pretty standard for most school going children, and parents, etcetera, unless I pay for after school clubs. I need flexibility, and a job that acknowledges that, and flexibility about how I can potentially manage, and get that done. Again, it’s not hard, with virtual options, or with flexibility around hours, etcetera, getting jobs done.

So that needs to be built, for a fair standard… Quite a bit of the population, having to do things like this. Similarly, with holidays, as well. We all know kids are on summer holidays, for six weeks, and another, what do parents do? So again, virtual options, acknowledgement of that, flexibility around project dates, and deadlines. Small changes, that are doable, really doable, and not surprising, for the majority of parents in this group. It’s not something that needs to change at the top. I think it’s something that you can mention, at every single meeting, that is arranged at an antisocial time, or if no virtual option is available, just to make that point, every single time, until the change happens. So again, easy to do, changeable. We just need to push for as long as it takes.

Dr Gemma Lace:

And I think the other thing to add to that, Angelique, is that we do need allies in this. So, I know there are people who are very successful in academia, that don’t have families, and we need those people to speak up as well, and to call out those meetings, that do fall over, like the key departmental meetings that occur on an evening, or they will occur just at school drop-off time, or pick-up time. We do need allies in this, so that it’s not just the people with families that are having to shout out. It’s that it just becomes a rule of thumb, that we are more considerate when we plan events, when we plan meetings, and we make sure that we are taking an inclusive approach because this isn’t a conversation about stuff, this is a conversation about students, as well.

Our students have got more complex needs. We have students who are navigating a world which has got a lot of stuff going on, politically. We’ve got a cost-of-living crisis. We’ve got various international issues going on. Our students are in a space where they’re often juggling quite a lot of stuff, and they should be seeing us, setting the example, so that they know that when they do go into employment, whatever that might look be, we want to make research look attractive. If they’re going to be stuck there, as a PhD student thinking, “Well, I have to come in at six, and I have to leave at eight, and that’s it.” We should be setting the example, and calling on ourselves, as well, if we’re not setting the example.

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

I think we have to sort of look as well at what success is. There can be brilliant academics, at the senior postdoc levels, that don’t want to be promoted to professor, but it’s hard for them to stay in academia research because they’re not taking that next step. I started out as a technician at the institute, many moons ago, and for me to stay there, I had to go down the academic route, being promoted to professor, get tenure track, but to be honest, I’d be quite happy to be a senior postdoc in the lab, doing all the lab work. I love that, but I very rarely get to do it now. That’s what I trained for. So, I think, on the grand scheme of things, we should look at what success is. Just because you make it to professor, doesn’t mean you are the be all and end all. My postdocs are the most amazing people I’ve got in my team, and have skillsets that I don’t have, and that’s why we work as a team.

But if you look at the statistics, it’s probably rare that all of them are going to make professorships, but they’re doing an amazing job for dementia research. So, I think, as universities and academic institutions, we need to look at making positions available for post docs, that want to do that role long term.

Dr Gemma Lace:

Yeah, there’s a piece of work there about raising awareness of what the possibilities are, post PhD, and that there is that kind of diagram of you do this, you do this, yeah. And you navigate through, to become a professor, and that’s where you aspire to be when you grow up. And actually, that might not be what suits your needs, as someone who is a scientist, you might want to go into industry, you might want to go into medical rights, you might want to go into teaching, and all of that is fine. And actually, you might want to loop round, and dip into all sorts of things. You might want to go into arts, or management, or support.

There’s lots and lots of careers, and I think we need to be careful that when we speak to students, and we’re trying to support students, to get them where they want to be, we’re not trying to get them where we want it to be. We’re trying to get them truly where they want to be, and help them achieve their goals, not our goals, or someone else’s goals. And that’s probably a habit that we do is, “Oh, what you need to do is this.” Whereas “Okay, so what would work with you?” and using more coaching approach is to raise awareness because, and I think that would help, looping back to that fear thing, of, “Well, am I going to apply for that? I’m not what that job is? I don’t know whether it’s for me. People might think differently of me if I do that, or if I don’t do that.” And challenging some of those kinds of stereotypes and myths about academia, and what the various career options are, would help make it all more accessible.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

It’s a cultural change thing, as well, because as much as we want to showcase the diverse and incredible paths you can take, as a scientist, and what it might look like for you, we need that diversity in science. We need that spread, and breadth, and representation of people, and approaches, and thinking, in science because we’ve got some really complex, massive challenges ahead of us. And if we don’t have that, we don’t have that kind of breadth, and that depth of creativity, and thinking differently, and thinking across, what it means to be women, and parents, and people, and communities, and societies. If we don’t have that, we’re not going to be able to solve them. So really as much as it is for students, and for scientists of the future, it’s kind of what we need, as a globe, to really move forward. So, it needs to happen.

Dr Jo Barnes:

I think there also needs to be more sort of permanent roles that are at the lower levels, within science, because I think that that is one thing that pushes people away, normally, well certainly, in our university, you only get a permanent position, when you are at a relatively senior level. And I think there needs to be more of those created, at the lower levels, so that people feel secure, and they can operate, almost like a staff scientist, for some time, and they have those in other countries. This role of staff scientist, which is somewhere that you can just remain stable for a while. You can produce results, you can work with teams, you can build your career, in a way that suits you. It gives you that breathing space.

I think the problem is that everything is so immediate with science, nowadays. You’ve got to go for the next grant, and the deadline is in six weeks, and one thing after another, and it feels very much like a treadmill. And I think that if you had a little bit more breathing space, at that point, when your children are young, potentially, or when you’ve got aged parents, or other things that are pulling you in a different direction, it might keep people in science, for longer. And I totally agree with what Angelique said. You do need all these perspectives. The classic example is heart disease. Everyone thought it was a male problem because men were researching it for men. And in actual fact, of course, it affects women, but it affects women differently, and it affects different communities, and different ethnicities, differently. And I think that you need all those perspectives, so that everyone is shining a light from their own perspective, and you see the full picture. You can’t do that if it’s just one type of person, who is within science. So, we do need to protect that heterogeneity and that diversity.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

That’s a really interesting point, as well, Jo, that you raise, that there’s those positions, elsewhere in the world. In other countries, there’s more of the staff scientist type positions and things. So, are there any learnings, and any specific things, that we can do in the UK, and the academic environment, and take these learnings from elsewhere? And I’m just going to come to one final larger question before I come on to a recap. So, can we bring it back to dementia research, for a moment, before we finish? So, looking ahead, what are your hopes, and aspirations, for the future of dementia research, and are there any particular aspects, that you really think require our attention or focus?

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

So yeah, I’ve got a scrapbook of lots of ideas to move forward. I just need the funding to do it now. So, most of my previous research has been on proteins, and protein tenacious inclusions, in the different dementias. But I am sort of branching out now into lipids. I would love to take, like they’ve got microbiomes, sort of further forward, but I just don’t have… I need 48 hours in a day to be able to do this. So, I’m always interested in researchers doing that kind of research because I think it’s fascinating. We have a large team at UCL investigating it. They’ve got microbiome, in relation to Parkinson’s disease, but I’m always interested to read, for different dementias, as well. So, I’d love to be a part of that. I know nothing about the [inaudible] microbiome, but I’m just fascinated, and I read it all the time. So, more lipids, rather than proteins, I’m branching out into, and single cell transcriptome mixed, to look at different cell types, involved in different dementias.

But moving away, I was given a bit of advice, whilst I was doing part of my PhD, in New York University, by quite an eminent professor there, that identified the original amyloids, and he said like, “Everybody is working on [inaudible], just go find something else to do. Stop being a sheep.” So, most of my focus now is on RNA binding proteins, and how they sort of mess up the workings of the neurons. And so yeah, lots of things to come, which is quite exciting. Yeah, I’d just like more hours in the day.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Thanks, Tammaryn, and Gemma, can we come to you next?

Dr Gemma Lace:

Yeah, it’s such an exciting time to be a dementia researcher, isn’t it? There’s been so many developments recently, with clinical trials, and I guess one thing that I’m really keen to start exploring is the really early disease diagnostics. The preclinical biomarkers that could enable us to get people in clinical trials really early on, decades before we would expect to see the symptoms manifest. And so, a lot of the work that we’ve been doing in our group uses human brain tissue, in the first instance, to look for some of those changes. And then we look at that in cell-based models, to see what happens if we start messing with some of the pathways. And we’re also interested in how that translates into peripheral, any of the changes we’ve seen in the brain, how that translates into peripheral tissues.

Again, just interested in those very, very early disease changes, that could hint that someone’s on the pathway to develop a different type of dementia, but not just to diagnose the type of dementia, but to diagnose what is driving the dementia. Is it a mitochondrial deficit? Is it that we’ve got disruption of the protein degradation pathways? What is it that’s driving the eventual development of dementia? Because if we can understand that we know what kind of drug is likely to be most beneficial. So, I’m going to shut up now because otherwise, I will keep talking for ages. I’ll be quiet.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

It’s a super, super interesting area, Gemma. I could also talk for a long time about it, but Jo, if we can come to you next?

Dr Jo Barnes:

So, there’s a couple areas of research that I want to develop. So, one of them is postmortem imaging. Tammaryn and I have done a bit of this in a few cases, and that is about imaging the brain before it’s cut, and then you can link up the imaging during life, with the pathology, using the postmortem image that you’ve collected. And it’s also a way of interrogating the brain before it’s cut, as well, so you can get metrics, at that time. So that’s one really interesting thing and applying that to sort of birth cohorts, where actually brain donations are being made from birth cohorts. Then you’ve got everything, all the way through imaging during life, but you’ve also got their birth weights. You’ve got what their childhood attainment scores at seven were, and things like that, so really interesting stuff. So that’s one side of things.

And then, the other side is just about imaging metrics, getting really good quality imaging metrics from MR, that can be used in diagnostics. So multimodal metrics that can be used diagnostically but also to track disease. And particularly now, we’ve got some treatments, that are coming online, but some of them actually cause ARIA and things like that. So that’s an imaging issue because ARIA can really distort the actual images. So also providing metrics that can be used in cases like that, to track disease progression in people that are treated. So, they’re the things that I really want to look into.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Great, thank you. And Angelique, can we come to you?

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

So, reflecting on my work, as an applied public health researcher, I get really fired up by the still kind of mass of siloed working, that we have, in dementia. Just looking at my own research, where I look at dementia and infections, and how that needs to come together, and it fires me up, not just because there’s so much that we don’t understand, about the interactions between different conditions, and different sort of pathological processes, etcetera, but also because there’s just so much that we can learn, from other fields, and from other disciplines, and beyond clinical disciplines, as well.

So, if I bring in health inequalities, and the socioeconomic impacts, as well. There’s just so much there that we don’t understand, and we don’t piece together, for people living with dementia. And I guess the major, major reason why it really fires me up is because that’s where I see so much potential for the solutions, because it’s those integrated system-wide solutions that are really what is going to change outcomes, for people living with dementia. And also, just because we know so much, working in those, each of those fields knows what to do, knows a lot about what works, and what doesn’t work. It’s that piecing together, and really sort of focusing on the design of responsive, and context-specific solutions, and the implementation, and the evaluation, and the follow through, of all of that, that we do very little on. And I find that frustrating, but at the same time, so exciting because I can see the potential, so a lot more there, please.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

That’s a super exciting and interesting thing about the research. And I would add one extra area that would come up from myself, is I think there’s a lot to be learned from looking across other disease areas. And what has been learned in those other diseases, perhaps in diabetes, perhaps in cardiovascular, and taking the learnings from those into dementia research, as well. So, I’m just going to try and put together a really short recap of what you guys have discussed today. So, I think that a couple of things have really come out. Some things are similar from last time, and some new nuggets from today, as well. And one thing which I think is a real takeaway would be that there is no right way of doing things. You need to find your own way. You need to find your own way that works for you, that works for your family, that works for your research career. And that is not going to be the same way, that is all the way throughout your life, because your home life will change, your research, and your career will change, as well.

And so, embrace the wobble, I think was our new phrase, that Gemma had coined, in this podcast, five years on, from last time. And there’s things that we can all do to help others, coming up through. So, everyone talked a lot about mentorship, a lot about working with students, and enabling them to see that path. So, I think that they would be my top two takeaways, that I can come up with, from just listening to you speak today.

So, we’re almost at the end, but before we finish, I’m going to put each of you on the spot, one last time, and ask you to share one short punchy top tip. For anyone who is trying to manage a family, and a career, or perhaps is wanting to think about starting a family, and therefore thinking about how they could juggle that, or who is thinking about returning to their career, after a period of leave. And I’m going to turn things around a little bit, and come to Angelique first, for that, please.

Dr Angelique Mavrodaris:

I think, maybe, two things, because you talked about people thinking about having kids, and then people who do have kids. For the people that do have kids, you got this, you are superheroes already, just for doing it, and just keep going. You’re doing an amazing job, and the example that you’re setting for your kids, we didn’t talk about that, but that’s something that for me, fuels me more than anything. Knowing that what I’m doing, and what she sees me doing, is something that she’s going to take with her, and that is going to impact her, and impact how she sees the world, and what she goes on to do. And that, I find, just such a privilege, but also the biggest and greatest fuel. So that’s for you guys, who already have one.

For those of you thinking of having one, do it. Again, all the stuff we’ve been talking about, the challenges which we are not calling challenges. The embracing bit. If it’s right for you, and you’re thinking about it, it certainly was. She’s the best thing I’ve ever done, and as I was mentioning before, the fuel for so much of what I’m doing, and certainly my inspiration, and my motivation, when I hit rock bottom, and the reason why I do my work, and want to make the world a better place, and hopefully, that’s something that will inspire many others. So those will be my two major big takeaways.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Great. Thank you, Angelique. Jo, can we come to you next?

Dr Jo Barnes:

For those who have kids, if you are sort of trying to make your path, and it feels too much, which it can do, at times, I think make sure you stop work for a bit. Go and have a nice evening, go to bed early, if you can, and it will seem better in the morning. It’s Grandmother’s advice, basically. It does work. It does feel better, and you will find a way, and that’s true whether you are thinking of having children, or you’ve already got kids, you will find a way. There will be a way. There’s a path. You just got to find it.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Thank you, Jo, and Gemma, I’ll come to you next.

Dr Gemma Lace:

I think I’ll bring it back to the self-care thing. For those of you who have already got kids, no, it is absolutely fine to lock yourself in the bathroom, and eat custard creams, away from your children, every now and again, if that’s what you need. And a key bit of advice I was given, over lockdown, by a number of people, was do what you can, when you can, if you can, and learn to be a bit more forgiving to yourself, knowing that you’re doing an amazing job, and that you’re a superhero. And for anyone who’s contemplating having children, I think I said this in the last podcast, but there will never be a right time to make that decision, and only you can make that decision. But if you surround yourself with the right people, and you’ve got a supportive environment at work, and also if you don’t have a supportive environment back at home, if you create that system through interaction with positive, powerful influences through TED Talks, and literature, then that will all help.

But there’s never a perfect time, so you should just go for it, if it feels right for you.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Fantastic. And then, Tammaryn, we’ll come to you last of all, please.

Dr Tammaryn Lashley:

Thank you, Heather. My advice for those that already have children, and are looking to negotiate an academic career, is find somebody that can listen. Often, you don’t need advice, you just need to talk things through, and often somebody just listens, helps you gather your thoughts, and be able to work through things yourself. And you do connect with certain people, better than others. So, find that person or people, not necessarily in your sort of home team, but friends that you can talk to. For those that haven’t got children, and are thinking about it, I would say just go for it. They are the best thing that has happened to myself and my husband.

They teach us things new, every day, especially my youngest, that with all her limitations, she is [inaudible] every day with what she can do, what she’s learned. They told us she would never walk. Now she’s running, swimming, everything. She’s just amazing, as are my older two. So yeah, just do it. You learn so much from them, about yourself, and how they negotiate the world, and how they just go for it, sometimes. You have your reservations about things, but the kids just off they go, and do things, so you can learn so much from them, as well, and so just do it.

Professor Heather Mortiboys:

Great, thank you. And I’m going to add one of my own that will fall on from what Tammaryn was saying there. So, when someone asked me what I love about being a scientist, I said that it is the best job in the world because I get to learn new things every day. And I think that’s probably the best thing about being a parent, as well, is that I get to learn new things every day, and the kids teach me so many new things, every day. So, I think it’s to embrace learning and finding out new things. And that brings us to the end of this special reunion episode of the Dementia Researcher podcast. We’ve traveled through time, catching up with our esteemed guests, and witnessing the remarkable journey they’ve embarked on, over the past five years. I want to extend my heartfelt gratitude to Professor Tammaryn Lashley, Dr. Gemma Lace, Dr. Jo Barnes, and Dr. Angelique Mavrodaris, for sharing their invaluable insights, experiences, and advice, with us all today. Your dedication is really inspiring.

As we conclude this episode, let us carry with us the lessons learned, and the inspiration gained, from these exceptional individuals. Living proof that you can have a career, and a family, and remain sane. So, thank you all for joining us on this reunion journey. Keep exploring, keep questioning, keep striving for a better future. Until next time, I’m Professor Heather Mortiboys, and this has been The Dementia Researcher podcast. Goodbye for now.

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Brought to you by dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk, in association with Alzheimer’s Research UK, Alzheimer’s Society, Race Against Dementia, and the Alzheimer’s Association, bringing you research, news, career tips and support.

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