Podcast – At Breaking Point: Burnout in Academia

Voice Over:

The Dementia Researcher podcast, talking careers, research conference highlights and so much more.

Dr Fiona McLean:

In this podcast, I'm joined by three researchers who have all reached the enviable stage of having a fellowship, fighting their way through the ups and downs and having come out the other side. And it is all about beating down the flames of academic burnout. Hello, I'm Dr. Fiona McLean and I'm an Alzheimer's research UK fellow at the University of Dundee. And in the past, I've gone through the pain of burnout. That introduction may sound like the start of an academics anonymous meeting and perhaps it is a little like that because today is all about sharing insights, strategies and real-life experiences that inspire a shift towards a more resilient, supportive, and sustainable research culture and beating academic burnout. Joining me are three of my favourite people who regular listeners will all have met before. We have the incredible Dr. Sarah Marzi, the Unstoppable, Dr. Ian Harrison, and the force of nature that is Dr. Kate Harris. Hi everyone. [inaudible 00:01:16]. For the benefit of those who haven't met you before, we should probably do some proper introductions. So, Sarah, why don't you go first?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Of course. So, hi everyone, I'm Sarah. I'm a senior lecturer at the UK Dementia Research Institute at Kings College London, having just moved over from Imperial College London where I did my fellowship. And I work on epigenetic regulation in neurodegenerative diseases. And my group are particularly interested in understanding non-coding, genetic variants, and their effects as well as environmental risk factors and how exposures over a whole life course can alter gene regulatory programmes in our brain cells and how that might lead to disease.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Amazing. I love your research. It's so fascinating. Let's move on to Ian. Let's get to know you a little bit better.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Hi, so my name is Ian Harrison. So, I'm a senior research fellow at UCL at the Centre of Advanced Biomedical Imaging at UCL. So, my research group is involved in researching the glymphatic system and clearance mechanisms in the brain that are responsible for removal of proteins that accumulate in neurodegenerative diseases. So, we work on both Alzheimer's and Parkinson's as well.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Amazing. Thank you so much, Ian. And Kate, why don't you introduce you and your research?

Dr Kate Harris:

A little bit starstruck right now. This is amazing. So, hi everyone, I'm Kate. I am not a senior anything. I think that's probably the thing to clarify, I am still in my first fellowship and I'm a Newcastle University academic track fellow closing the name up at Newcastle University in drug discovery for neurodegenerative diseases. And our idea is we want to increase translation by bringing assay development, translational neuropathology, and drug discovery altogether so that we stop getting those late-stage deaths in the clinic.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I love that you could all find time to join me today. And we meet here so often. Well, we were talking about this before the podcast started recording. I know you all, but you don't know each other. But Sarah actually met, we did the Westminster appearing scheme together a couple of years ago now through the Royal Society and we had a blast down there, Kate, we just met through a podcast, I think.

Dr Kate Harris:

We did. Yes.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes. We met through doing one of these, which was lovely. And Ian, we met through doing podcasts, but then we met in person, and we had that weird moment of like, "Oh, I've seen you online so much." And now you're a real-life person, who knew? But it's lovely that everyone can come together and maybe you can now get to know each other. This is how we grow a network is actually through dementia research podcasts. So now that you know who I'm chatting to and what we're talking about, let's get on with the show. So, I think we should first talk about what actually burnout is. I actually looked up the dictionary definition of burnout because I was really curious, and the first one is about literal burnout when a fire stops burning. So that obviously wasn't quite what I was looking for.

But the second definition is this from the Cambridge Dictionary it says to be forced to stop working, you become ill or very tired from working too hard. And the other thing I found really interesting was that it's technically not a medical condition, but it's recognised as a syndrome and it's a state of physical and emotional exhaustion. And I don't know why I had never really thought about it even being medically associated. I think maybe we've become really normalised to the term burnout. Maybe people used to refer to it as stress a bit more, but I think it's more than stress. You're not just feeling the anxiety or stress, it's then affecting your performance and the way you're feeling. So yes, let's talk a little bit about people's experiences with burnout and their experience of it. So, let's go to Ian. When's a time in your career or most recently that you felt burnout hit you?

Dr Ian Harrison:

I should start by saying that there's been numerous, there's not just been one, but I think for me, there was a point where I was applying for an extension to my fellowship. There was a point where I knew where I was like... Well anyway, I'll tell you why. So, I was applying for an extension for my fellowship, and it was taking a really, really long time because it had to be an out of cycle extension application. It was taking six months or so for the charity to give me any kind of answer to give me any kind of feedback. And so, I was pushing this for ages, and it got to about seven months and then my contract was about to expire, and I was really, really stressed.

All the time I was trying to write all these papers, supervise students and loads of lecturing and other teaching that I had to do. And there was a point where I remember getting the email to say that the extension had gone through, and I was successful, and they were granting me another few years of funding. And I remember thinking like, "Oh right, okay, that's good. I should probably tell some people that that's done now. Anyway, so what have I got to do?" And I remember thinking, I remember logging off that day and thinking, "I should probably be happier about this. Why isn't this a big surge of yeah, and I've got an extension I've won a grant." But it was like, "Oh, wow."

Dr Fiona McLean:

But it was the dopamine.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yes, exactly.

Dr Fiona McLean:

There was the dopamine, the dopamine hit. Yes.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Exactly. And then I was like, "Oh wow, okay, that's not the right response, is it?"

Dr Fiona McLean:

So that period of time, how did that affect you in terms of the rest of your work and your personal life as well? How did that burnout affect you?

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yes, because I was with work stuff, I was very much in the rhythm of things. I knew I had to turn up to work. I knew exactly what I needed to do. I was trying to be efficient as possible at work so we could get home, do school, nursery pickups, all the rest of it. But it was one of those things, there wasn't much, I don't know, there wasn't much joy in stuff any more like getting that grant, acceptance news. There wasn't much like, "Oh great, well this is a really exciting data set, or this is a really cool experimental outcome." It just flattened everything a bit. And it was then when I knew that something had to change, or I needed to work on the way I was dealing with stuff.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yep, absolutely. Sarah, can you tell us a time about in your career where you've experienced burnout?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Yes, absolutely. And I have to echo what Ian said, it is more than one probably across the years and it goes in peaks and troughs in general, but I think towards the second half of the pandemic was a particularly tough time for me. So, I was on my fellowship and getting the whole fellowship extremely exciting and imperial. Then a few months into my fellowship, the pandemic hits, great timing to start your own lab. But I think for me it's a combination of work and personal stuff that sometimes comes together because of course, yes, we are scientists, but we're also humans and we're not independent of our personal lives. And this is maybe a little bit of oversharing, but that's the way I am. So, I split up with my partner throughout the pandemic and then I had to find a new flat in London and it's not so affordable cost of living crisis.

So, I was really depressed that I didn't feel like I could afford anything even though technically I was supposed to be having this successful scientific career, then it was hard to produce stuff. I was learning how to run and build my own lab and there are so many things that I love about it, but it's also incredibly challenging and sometimes it just feels overwhelming. There are so many demands on you, you have to, of course at the end of the day you're going to be measured in what are you publishing and how much money do you bring in. But all of that has a huge underlying structure of things you need to be able to do across administrative tasks, supervision, people management, networking, career development. And I think my burnout manifests maybe more towards the anxiety and stress side. So, I'm already a light sleeper and when I'm doing poorly, I sleep very, very poorly.

I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't fall asleep again, and that makes everything worse because then on top of having the burnout syndromes that include fatigue and tiredness, you're becoming even more tired and you're almost too overwhelmed to even start tackling tasks. Tasks that once you actually do them, they are doable and feasible, but they seem so overwhelming at the time. So yes, that's my experience and I had some psychological help as well and that was really beneficial. And even admitting that I might've needed, it took me a while, but it was good. And sometimes I also pull the plug in the sense that I take some time off and go away and disengage and that does help for me as well. But I mean maybe it's not the best way to use it as a last resort. Maybe you should integrate that as a more regular thing into your lifestyle.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes, maybe more as a protective strategy rather than trying to fix it once there's a problem. And thank you for being so honest about all of that. I actually vaguely remember, we met around the time that you were looking for a flat and as someone who had just met you, I remember thinking, "Gosh, she's a very busy lady." Because you're also doing these amazing singing concerts as well, I remember that. Which I hope helped with the burnout to say to-

Dr Sarah Marzi:

They do help, yes.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes. To give an outlet, but it's still another thing you have to organise in your life. So, I remember. But thank you for that, Sarah. And Kate, can you tell us about a time that you've experienced burnout?

Dr Kate Harris:

Yes, sure. I was going to say just wanting to send my love to all of you, Fiona, I hope you're going to share something of yourself as well. This is a group therapy session, but just Ian and Sarah amazing courage to share that and I think it's lovely that you're sharing how you experience it and obviously office podcast, if you ever want to chat, listening is my jam. Please do get in contact.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Oh, cute.

Dr Kate Harris:

So, I guess burnout obviously like everyone said multiple times, but I'm just going to level with you and be like right now. And that is because, and it's been for the past couple of years because, so you know, but the listeners won't, I decided to start a research group and a family at the same time. So, I have a toddler and I'm now about 21 weeks pregnant with my second. And I started my research group in the middle of the pandemic in 2020. And it's just been carnage if I'm honest.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I'm not surprised.

Dr Kate Harris:

And in line with what Sarah and Ian were sharing is the way that our burnout manifests, mine's triggered quite strongly by interpersonal conflict. So as soon as I feel like someone's mad at me, that will send me off the deep end. And that obviously can be challenging in an environment where people are quite different, and people are competing. I can handle almost any amount of work and any lack of sleep, but as soon as I think someone's not impressed with me, that will be the slope.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And science is such a critical field. So, we are constantly being critiqued and that's not a sad thing because that's how science progresses, it's how your experiments are designed to the best that they can be. But it does take a lot of resilience to not take criticism of your science as a criticism of yourself.

Dr Kate Harris:

Of you. So just sharing that with any of our listeners who might relate with that. I appreciate that I'm sharing it because it's not necessarily considered to be, I don't know, sometimes you get told that you're too sensitive or something, but there are plenty of us who are worried about confrontation or whatever. And mine manifests in an interesting way because it manifests in a brain fog. So, all of a sudden, and I am doing it right now, I'm struggling to put the sentences together. So, I'll be in a meeting where I'm trying to prove that I'm good enough for whatever reason and then I can't actually construct a rational scientific sentence. So, then the people in the room are like, "Can you even put a scientific hypothesis together? Do you even know what you're talking about?" And it all just spirals and feeds. So, when I'm well, you fire off whatever science you want, and it shocks people. But the second I start losing my ability to articulate is usually a sign that I'm tired.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Absolutely.

Dr Kate Harris:

In case that's interesting to people.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I have exactly the same. I mean hopefully what the listeners won't hear is I just had to do the introduction about three times because-

Dr Kate Harris:

It's great. I loved it.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, I really hoping that'll get edited out, because I am also really burn out at the moment. It is why I proposed this podcast. I was just thinking about it a lot and I wish that I had maybe just a podcast I could listen to about other scientists who maybe are experiencing the same and maybe there was some strategies in there or just to hear that actually it's quite normal, not that that's okay, but that at least you're not alone in dealing with burnout in your career. And for me, if I'm really honest, I think I've been on this trajectory for a couple of years. So, I think for me, the pandemic, I mean the pandemic was really stressful because we had a brand-new virus, and it was killing people, and we had no idea what was happening. I don't actually think we talk about the fact that the pandemic was a really crazy thing to happen, and we moved on from it quite quickly without really discussing about how crazy it was.

But I was furloughed for a couple of months. I'm not particularly good at doing nothing. And I was also living in a flat. So in that first bit of the pandemic when we were limited to going outside, I was like, "Well, I have to do something, so I'll write a fellowship and I will write a paper and I'll do stuff like that because it'll keep my mind busy and hopefully that'll distract me from what's going on in the world." So did that eventually got a fellowship when I came off furlough, I came back into a project where I was only postdoc in Dundee working on it. And my supervisor, his team was just me at that point.

So, I was in the lab pretty much by myself because also we were socially distancing and I worked in a hospital, so it was very isolating, and I was just trying to play catch up on this project. I wanted to deliver this project; I didn't want it not to happen. So, I worked extremely hard to get it done. And then I got my fellowship and that was amazing. And then I went straight to my fellowship, which is, it's a real steep learning curve where you're transitioning into independence and suddenly there's just a higher expectation put on you in terms of what you contribute to your academic environment in terms of say committees that you're sitting on or teaching, there's just a lot more expected of you and there's also a lot of pressure of, "Well okay, you've got your fellowship now, how are you going to make the next transition to say tenure track or a PI position?"

So, it's a lot. And then this is extremely specific to my fellowship, I'd like to say, there were some challenges getting the animals in that I was going to work with. It's an Alzheimer's mouse model. And because of that, they came in late and then when they did come in, they bred extremely well, which is usually a scientist's dream, but it meant that I had a lot of animals to use at the same time point. So, the last six months for me, Ian's also had it. The last six months have been extremely intense in the lab. And I think in the run of Christmas, I worked every weekend for about two or three months. And when I say work a weekend, I mean 12 hours a day. I feel like I've now just ranted about my life for the laughing.

Dr Kate Harris:

This is the point.

Dr Fiona McLean:

But yes.

Dr Kate Harris:

Let it out.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes, so it was very physical as well. That's what people don't talk about. It's very physical science sometimes at the bench, you're on your feet a lot. I work between two campuses, I'm running around, I'm hitting those 10,000 steps every day and I think it's just got to the other side of the year, and I've just gone, "Oh my goodness, it's still not quite over yet with the animal work." I've got a year left in my fellowship and people are saying, "So what's your next grant? What's your next fellowship?"

Dr Kate Harris:

Do you need a spoon to hold up and be like, "Don't ask me that question."

Dr Fiona McLean:

Oh yes, a little bit, I just need a big sign that wear around my neck, please don't ask.

Dr Kate Harris:

I'm aware of my future. Please don't bring it up.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes. So yes, my burnout manifests similar to Sarah's in that I end up getting a bit of insomnia. So, I stay up quite late at night thinking about everything I have to do. Sometimes I'll even do some work late at night and then it takes me a while to get to sleep and then the next morning I'm tired because I haven't had enough sleep. And then if you don't get up early and get on with stuff, then you can get a little bit behind and then it is a cycle. So that's where a challenge is breaking that cycle. And I don't think I have broken that cycle yet. I need to, I'm not quite sure how to, but I know I need to.

And I've got a lovely support network, my husband at home is really supportive, but it is difficult. And sometimes he looks at me and he says, "But why can't you just get some help? Just get someone to help you." And I'm like, "But who?" I don't have any staff in my lab, and I've spent a lot of time writing grants to try and get staff and I haven't got those grants. So now not wasted time, but it feels sometimes like a waste of time on trying to get a grant to get staff. And then I don't have the staff and I don't have the time for when I tried to get the staff in. Yes, it's hard. I want to bring you all back in though.

So, I feel like to our listeners, it's almost a little bit of therapy. Like I say, I propose this podcast and maybe it's just, I just can't afford therapy. And I thought, let's get together some people I know who are incredibly wise, maybe they can help me. Thank you. So, let's talk more a little bit. We touched on already, but why does burnout happen? So, I think for myself, I can identify that as well, the pandemic was a really strange situation, but I guess maybe a luckiness with what happened with my animals and my experiment and them coming in at a delayed time. But maybe I've been a bit over ambitious. I don't know, maybe with that delay, maybe I should have taken an experiment out. I don't know, I'm literally thinking about this right now.

Dr Kate Harris:

May I interject and suggest you're a little kinder to yourself? For example, I hate the word should, should I feel like always implies negativity.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I know.

Dr Kate Harris:

And I want to blame yourself. You wouldn't want anyone to blame themselves for their burnout, would you?

Dr Fiona McLean:

No.

Dr Kate Harris:

How about reframing? Sorry, the coaching training's coming in now.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I know.

Dr Kate Harris:

How can you reframe that?

Dr Fiona McLean:

Instead of saying I should have done something, you reframe it and say, "Well what did I do? What did I achieve?"

Dr Kate Harris:

And what could you do differently?

Dr Fiona McLean:

What could I do differently? Probably just stop.

Dr Kate Harris:

If you're over ambitious, over ambitious has got quite a negative connotation to it. But maybe you had a lot on.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes.

Dr Kate Harris:

How do feel?

Dr Fiona McLean:

Ambition is a really strange thing actually. And it's really strange in academia I think because actually it's required because when you're writing grant applications, they probably won't get funded unless they have an element of being ambitious to them. I've seen back on grant applications; I've seen this experiment, or this proposal is too ambitious. I've seen it's not ambitious enough. So, I'm really curious what is the right level?

Dr Kate Harris:

No idea.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I don't know.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

The eternal contradiction of the grant proposal. Have you not learned that yet? At the same time too ambitious and not interesting and innovative enough. And is it feasible?

Dr Kate Harris:

So, Sarah and Ian obviously being more experienced than us might have some thoughts on this and maybe it is just us, I don't know, but have you found it harder to get grants since the pandemic?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Well, I've only really started applying for grants since the pandemic, like proper bigger grants by myself. And yes, I've always found it hard to get grants. I'm not there yet. I've been successful sometimes, sometimes not. I think going out on your own without having a big name yet is a major step and hurdle. And I've written similar things with more famous people on my grants, and they've fared better. And part of that is because you need to make the reviewers and the funders confident that you can actually deliver on what you're saying. And if you don't have that famous name and track record yet, that's harder to prove or to make them believe. But part of it, yes, it's also just heuristic reasoning as we all do and as grant reviewers will do, associating big names, big labs with successes. I don't know, I still have much to learn, but you got to keep going. You can't let it get to you. And I say that despite being aware that I always let it get to me.

Dr Kate Harris:

It's the time shortens, doesn't it? The amount of time that you need to wallow.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

That's true. It does Shorten.

Dr Kate Harris:

I was over yesterday's rejection within about two hours, which is a personal record. I was proud of that.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, I mean I remember my first big rejection, I cried in the middle of Dundee and some Dundee locals actually came over and I can't even replicate the accent, it's just so wonderful. But they were basically like, "Are you okay?" And I was like, "No." And they were like, "I'm sure you'll be fine." And then walked on. But I remember just being like, "Oh my goodness, this is so embarrassing." And then ever since then, I don't think I've ever cried again. It sounds so bad you-

Dr Kate Harris:

You're all cried out.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, I am too busy to cry.

Dr Ian Harrison:

You've got no time for anyone.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I don't have time for crying. I think you've just become a bit numb to it.

Dr Kate Harris:

It links back to Ian, doesn't it? You were saying Ian, that it's not just as well the lack of success, although that is my biggest burner outer. It's also the amount of time and effort and waiting and you feel like your whole career is hinging on finding out something that you... I mean I'm so happy for you that yours got extended, that's amazing. So, congratulations. I wonder if in many cases I've started just assuming they're not going to come. So, I'm like, my time and career are hinging on something that I do not believe I will get.

Dr Ian Harrison:

I mean, and that's one of the most frustrating things I find as well. And with rejections, I think I'm similar in a similar position to Sarah. I think that I've only ever started applying for bigger grants post pandemic when I've been independent. But as I started applying for this stuff, I found grant rejections harder to swallow because with a paper rejection, you can be like, "Okay, well it's going to get published eventually, God knows where it's going to be, but I'll get it out somehow." But with the grant rejection, you put so much time into it and all the other stuff that you have to do, all the finances and making all of these flow charts and Gantt charts and everything to demonstrate that you can do the work. And then after that you're like, "Oh, okay."

Dr Kate Harris:

No feedback. Okay, great, thanks.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yes, and it's never going to be exactly the same again because each funder remit is slightly different. So, it does feel it's hard. I've found grant rejections harder.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

I agree. And my potentially controversial opinion on this is that I think a lot of it is a waste of time. Fiona, you asked is it a waste of time? And I think about 20% maybe is useful thinking about scientific projects and moulding and developing your critical thought and project, the other 80% is marketing and performance of how pretty is your writing and how well have you put this and that and impact and does not change the actual outcome and what you would do once you have your grant.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So, my fellowship application was ninety-six pages long and that is for our-

Dr Kate Harris:

You've got to be kidding me.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes, but for a three-year fellowship that was just under a quarter of a million pounds. I did a ECR grant for 15,000 pounds and it was forty-eight pages long. And the reason that I submitted it in the end was because I'd gone so far, I was like, "I'm going to finish this." And I did get it and I also thought maybe some people would be put off and therefore there might be a better chance of it getting funding with.

Dr Kate Harris:

I love this.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes. But if time is money, if you look at how much time it took versus the money that came back for it, you've got to ask yourself, was it worth it? Because I'm getting to that point now and another researcher gave me a really good, well yeah, a bit of advice where they said, "You're getting to that stage where you've got so much to do, you can't do everything to the best of your ability anymore and you're going to have to accept that you're only going to be able to do something to 70% now instead of the usual 100% that you're used to and you need to get comfortable with that. But remember that maybe your 70% is someone else who's a hundred percent. So don't feel too bad about it." And that actually really helped that person saying that to me because it lowered my expectation on myself as well.

Dr Kate Harris:

They sound lovely. Can we please [inaudible 00:29:18]?

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes. Oh yes. Well, it's Chris Henstridge. He's absolutely lovely, he's-

Dr Sarah Marzi:

I could do with that boost.

Dr Fiona McLean:

He's a researcher at Dundee and yes, actually that bit of advice is always stuck in my mind. It's a good bit of advice, I think. And that brings me on to maybe something I'd like to talk about, which is expectation. So, I think expectation can really drive burnout. I think the expectation from yourself, but also colleagues and other people in your life. And maybe Ian, if you want to talk a little bit about how maybe you found expectation on yourself or expectation from other people and how that's maybe contributed to your burnout.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yeah, I mean when you were talking earlier, Fiona, when you kept using the word should, like we said, that epitomises it, so you said, "I should do this, I should do that." That's your expectation that you've put on of your work output or the paper output or funding, this is what I should do, that's your decision. But yes, expectation. I think one of the things that I didn't, moving from postdoc to PI, one of the things I didn't expect was the amount of other stuff there is to do that you don't factor that in. When I was writing my grant, I was writing it as a postdoc who was running in the lab, I knew everything I was doing and it was writing a grant that I was like, "If I get this money, I could just do this like that."

But then there's all this other stuff that comes along, like you get added teaching responsibilities, you're on these managerial panels, you start doing more grant reviewing, paper reviewing, all of this other stuff. And because there were these isolated groups of people all having an expectation of you, you never want to let any one of them down. So, you never want to return that grant review late or haven't read it well enough by the time the review board meeting is, things like that. And then you don't want to neglect your students in the lab because they need your expertise and your supervision.

But yes, I don't know if that's added much, but I didn't appreciate how many sources of my time or my energy there would be on how many different drains of that there would be when I moved to PI. And I think that's one of the things that drove me to become burnout. Especially in those first couple of years of fellowship where you are so excited, you've got your own money and then you get up and running with the experiments and then you're like, "Oh my gosh, there's all this other stuff to do. I'm trying to do these experiments at the same time." And then I don't know, a senior colleague would be like, "Well as soon as you get a fellowship, you should start applying for the next one." And you're like, "Oh my god, I don't want to know that now." It's a lot. Different sources of people asking you to do various different things.

And like you say, sorry, what you were saying before about 100% and 70% doing it well. I mean stuff should get easier. The initial grant application I wrote in the first fellowship application I wrote took so long because it is a different style of writing, isn't it, compared to papers? But like you say, the longer you're in the game, you can put less effort into things, and it will still be good enough and it will still be good enough to be funded. And it's lowering that expectation of getting rid of that perfectionist in you to just be like, "No, this is good enough. I have reviewed this grant well enough, or I have put enough comments on that student's report."

Dr Fiona McLean:

Absolutely. You said a word there, which I want to touch on, which is energy. And I sometimes I actually say this to my students, you only have so much energy and every week, every day you have to decide what you're going to put that energy into. And that comes back to that 70%, 100%, maybe there's a task you do 10%. So yes, if you think about if okay, I have X amount of energy, how do I divvy that up into all these tasks? That's one way I've been trying to manage it. But some things you have to line up things in order of when they need done, deadlines and we'll maybe come back to that on strategies to manage that. But I'd just like to bring in Kate. So, what do you think about what Ian said?

Dr Kate Harris:

You said you didn't think you'd add anything, honestly, you've just made me feel heard. Thank you. And this is the case because obviously we are all new PIs, so we're talking about from that perspective, but when I speak to my students or technicians or undergrads that every level, and I guess when you become senior, there's all this pressure on you to do all this great stuff for the people below you, but then who checks in with you? Who checks you're all right? And I think there's just that perception of what people want from you or what you want from yourself. I don't know how many of you are on open-ended contracts yet, but I'm not. So, trying to get tenure as one of the... Well, we don't have tenure in the UK, but that is something that's always on my mind because I'm like, "Well, I've got to impress all these people so that they decide that I'm worth a job at the end of it."

And I talk about this quite openly in the university. I try and give these talks on how to find your way when you sound different to everybody else or when you're just not because I wouldn't necessarily say I come across as your stereotypical scientist. I'm a bit silly, I don't necessarily, and sometimes that can have its own challenges because you are expecting so much of yourself, I guess it's probably all in my head. I feel like I have to prove I'm clever enough and that personal expectation can really weigh on you. So, what I was going to say is it links in with what you were asking Fiona and what people have mentioned is I've noticed that my times of burnout usually come after a period where my confidence has been knocked in my ability to do the science.

Dr Fiona McLean:

So, do you think that it comes down to a little bit of an imposter syndrome?

Dr Kate Harris:

Probably because I feel like I then have to prove myself and then I work too hard to prove myself. Whereas when I'm like, "Do you know what? I've got this, I'm creative, maybe a little less productive than other people, but I am creative, I look after my team." And if I can just have that space and that freedom to enjoy the science, I don't feel that burnt out. But as soon as I start thinking, "But that person thinks I'm dumb or that person didn't like the grant thing I wrote." I then start to, and it might be a very personal thing, but I've noticed it is linked to my own personal confidence whether I'm burning out or not.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I think for me, imposter syndrome drives burnout and burnout drives imposter syndrome. So, you can end up in this cycle of, "Oh, I'm not good enough." And then you are tired and stressed about thinking how you're not good enough. So, then that burns you out. So, then you're not actually maybe performing as well as you could.

Dr Kate Harris:

My brain.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes, and that cycle.

Dr Kate Harris:

For those listeners that don't know or didn't know, pregnancy brain is a thing. I feel like I'm losing an IQ point a day and I'll open things that used to be child play and I'll stare at it for two hours.

Dr Fiona McLean:

If it makes you feel better. I'm not pregnant and I'm also, I'm staring at it for two hours.

Dr Kate Harris:

If we can normalise it so when our students come in, I think this is, and I wonder if I'm accidentally leading onto something new, is actually we're trying to create this culture in my research group, I have no idea if I'm getting it right, probably not, where we actually own up to when we're having complete mares and when we're feeling dumb and when we're feeling burnout, we have mental health group meetings and people go, "Oh, you're wasting your time with this." And I'm actually like, "Well, if we're all in it together, we don't feel so alone. And obviously if we know who's suffering the most at any one time, then we can take a bit of the load off them. And even if we just have a complete mess-up on the board when we're drawing out chemical structures or whatever, we can all laugh about it together. The world doesn't end."

Dr Fiona McLean:

So maybe something that's essential is teamwork. This is where I'm a bit sad because I don't have a team. I would actually like to say I've got a really good medical student at the moment who's doing an interrelated year and he's doing a data analysis project, and it touches on what Ian said about joy in science again. There's data I've not had time to analyse, I've just been collecting it because I've had to collect it because the animals are there, and they have to have the data collected from them. And in some ways, it is good for the science because it means I'm kind of blinded. But I've now got the student who's now analysing this data and there's some really interesting stuff coming out of it and it's unexpected and it's not what the hypothesis was, but it's still interesting. And I did think the other day he showed me some data and I was like, "That is really interesting."

And I had that wee dopamine rush about the data, and I was like, "Oh, this is what I've been missing a bit." So sometimes when you can bring someone into your team to take on a role or a task, even if it's something that's maybe quite small, it can actually massively alleviate some of the pressure, some of the stress, some of the burnout. And I guess maybe it's a good time to move on to strategies because as much as I'm loving this free therapy session, I really want our listeners to be able to walk away from having listened to his podcast with some strategies if they themselves are suffering from burnout. So maybe just to touch back on what Ian said about grants and papers and reviewing them. So, one thing I thought was quite interesting recently is I read about how there's actually a bit of a crisis in peer review at the moment because so many scientists and academics are feeling the burnout.

They're looking for things they can drop out of their workload and one of those things, probably one of the top things to go is going to be doing reviews of papers and reviews of grants because you don't get recognition for them really. You can write it on a CV, but you don't get paid to do it and your university won't see it as something that's completely necessary to the running of your lab group or teaching. So, it was interesting because I got asked to review a grant recently for UKRI and I wanted to do it because I'm starting to write those big grants. And for me actually, it's really helpful to see how the style of writing is. So actually, for me, there is a benefit to reviewing those grants, but I couldn't do it within the timeframe they wanted. So, I went back to them, and I said, "Actually I can review this if I can submit it two weeks later on this date."

And they actually came back and said, "Yeah, that's fine. We really need it reviewed and we don't have anyone right now. So yes, we will accept it two weeks late." And actually, that made me think about boundaries and how setting boundaries can be really useful because I got what I needed and they got what they needed, even if it wasn't in the timeframe they originally wanted. And to be honest, they might not get a reviewer to do it till that time anyway because like I say, they were really short. So, for me, one thing I've been trying to do is just set boundaries and be really clear with people, "I really want to help you. I really want to take part in this thing that you're doing, or this set of experiments or this new group that you're setting up in the university, but it has to be with X, Y and Z boundaries." Has anyone else tried anything like that?

Dr Kate Harris:

That's amazing.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Kate is now going to get some boundaries.

Dr Kate Harris:

I know, I just really respect that confidence. I'm starting to do it, but I find it really hard. So, it's nice to hear someone else who's doing it and doing it well.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Well, I don't know if it's been done well, but for me it was a balance.

Dr Kate Harris:

You're doing it.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes. It was instead of saying no, which I don't always want to say no, but at the same time it was making tasks more manageable, if that makes sense.

Dr Kate Harris:

Aren't we just always desperate to say yes and do what people want exactly when they want it. I think maybe we're four people pleasers. And then you end up being exhausted. So, one of the things that my husband has set now is egos, "Well if you find yourself working more than two evenings a week and, on a weekend, then we need to look at your work-life balance." He wants to get it down to no evenings and no weekend. But he recognises that Rome wasn't built on a day as he likes to say, but we actually keep a, what you call it's like a work-life balance boundary. It's easier when you've got a kid because honestly, my toddler does not care whether or not I've got a deadline, right? He's just like, "Mummy."

Dr Fiona McLean:

Which is maybe a good thing actually.

Dr Kate Harris:

It's made such a difference. It sounds really stupid.

Dr Fiona McLean:

It removes you having to decide.

Dr Kate Harris:

It's helped. So one of the reasons that it's helpful, and I don't know how useful or otherwise this is to listeners is before having a family, this maybe is a sign that I needed a life, my soul worth was in my job and then I had a family that was my version of having a life outside of work. And now, I mean don't be wrong, the mum guilt and then the academic guilt means I often feel like I'm failing at both, but it means that I have a place where I can go and be good at something. So, I'll go home, and I'll play with him or if I manage to deal with a tantrum really well and he's really happy or he invents a song, apple Juice Clap is his new song that he's made up.

Dr Fiona McLean:

We are going to hear that at the end of the podcast, aren't we?

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Good idea.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Good idea, Fiona.

Dr Kate Harris:

He just came up to me and was like, I was like, "Well, this is amazing." And then the other day he just counted to fifteen out of nowhere. The guys just turned two. I was like-

Dr Fiona McLean:

That's good.

Dr Kate Harris:

... "What, I didn't know you could do that."

Dr Fiona McLean:

I was going to say, you know how I have some data analysis that needs done.

Dr Ian Harrison:

And I have, get working.

Dr Kate Harris:

Where did that come from?

Dr Fiona McLean:

Get him in the lab. Kate, come on.

Dr Kate Harris:

It's really funny actually, did I tell you this? Is that he hates chemistry, but he loves cells. So, I used to let him choose what I worked on in a week. It was very helpful.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I love that.

Dr Kate Harris:

Even a six-week-old.

Dr Fiona McLean:

There's an episode of the Big Bang Theory and it's where Sheldon's trying to be more productive and he says, if you leave the choices to chance and he gets a dice and he just rolls the dice and wherever it lands on, he just goes, "Well that's what I'm doing." And maybe that's what you've got there.

Dr Kate Harris:

Exactly, exactly. It's about these boundaries. And that enforced boundaries for me because I'd never felt able to set them. But you've done that for you, which I think is really empowering.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Well, I don't know how well I'm doing it, but I'm trying. Sarah, I'd like to bring you in. What about your strategies because you had this big move between universities. Tell us about your strategies and how you've coped with that.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Well first I was going to say what Kate just said resonates super well with me. I don't have a family, so not in that very, very one-to-one sense. But I think the idea that not your whole identity can hinge on being a scientist and your scientific success because that is a major vulnerability. And then if anything goes wrong, it hits you all the more. So, what is so important is having multidimensional identities where you gain happiness, reassurance, positive feedback from other domains in your life as well. And you're not just reliant on you as scientists because you're going to keep getting some rejections of papers, of grants, of whatnot. And Fiona, you mentioned this in the beginning, but for me singing is one of those nowhere near talented enough to be a professional singer or anything.

Dr Fiona McLean:

She is a very good singer.

Dr Kate Harris:

I bet she's.

Dr Fiona McLean:

She's a very good singer.

Dr Kate Harris:

Apple Juice, come on, sing it.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Creation. Yes, it's something I love to do. It gives me a lot of joy. I have a lot of good friends through singing. We sing in some exciting places. We sometimes go travel to places to sing. And yes, it gives me a lot of joy and it's something that's been constant in my life for many years and that does help support. And then equally what helps me is engaging with people who are not scientists. And in a sense, bringing back down to earth the idea of my identity as a scientist. And it shouldn't be the ultimate defining thing. So, I guess the way I approached my fellowship in the beginning when I was so excited that I got the fellowship, but also so terrified that I didn't know what to do in the beginning. I'm like, "How do I run a lab?" And what helped me approach it is the maybe slightly pessimistic idea that you think, "Well what's the worst that can happen if it goes really, really wrong?

If I'm terrible at this, then I have this four-year fellowship and then probably I'm going to find a job in industry and probably make some more money than I currently do. And I'll never fall into something that's unsustainable and still that could be a reasonable identity for me in which I can see myself." And that takes some pressure away. We put so much pressure onto, it has to be this one path. I think we're all perfectionists. Perfectionists are drawn to science and that often combines with the imposter syndrome.

And that makes the expectations that we put on ourselves so much higher than they should be and higher than what we expect from others actually. Which is something that has come through in some of what you've said, Fiona, for example, how you judge yourself or should I do this? What am I expecting of myself? I don't think you would judge your closest friends in the same way. I think often we're way more understanding with the people around us than we are with ourselves. And that's actually something I've learned from therapy because I was not very kind to myself at all in the past and it's something that I'm working on.

Dr Ian Harrison:

I love that attitude as well. I love that positivity of, "What's the worst that could happen? If this all goes wrong, I'll be fine. I'll work it out. I'll do something else." I love that.

Dr Kate Harris:

I love that you can do that in moments of crisis and just cut through the panic and be like, "Right, what's the worst that really happens?"

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yes.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Yes, exactly. And it's not the world ending actually.

Dr Fiona McLean:

No, it's not. Yeah, Yeah, the whole theme of identity is really interesting. And I guess maybe yes, where's your place within the lab? Where's your place within society almost? And when you're talking about things that bring you back down and ground you, it's actually where public engagement's quite nice to do occasionally. I know it's an extra thing to do, but I really do talking with, we have patient groups for diabetes that I've spoken to, but also through Air UK, I've spoken to people who either have a dementia related illness or our carers of people who are suffering from dementia and speaking to them just really sometimes just re-grounds you and they're always so nice and they're so appreciative of you carrying out this research. And then I think there's always this really nice reciprocal feeling of you're so appreciative to them for either doing fundraising that's helping fund your research or just doing the work they do to raise awareness.

Some of those moments are just so lovely to have that reciprocal appreciation. And also, maybe talking about identity, but mentorship I think is really important. I think it's really important to have a mentor. I have a really good mentor here, Mike Ashford, who is very, very good. And he knows I'm a little bit burnt out at the moment because I just saw him earlier this morning and he said, "I've got some chocolate for you, but I've left out at home." So, he knows me very well because I love chocolate. But also, I have another mentor, Yvonne Couch, who also contributes to dementia researcher content a lot. I was paired with her through the Alzheimer's research UK mentorship programme, and she's been very good for grounding me and I think she's such a wonderful scientist. Yet she also sometimes is saying, "Oh, I didn't get this grant, I didn't get that grant."

And this is what I was going to say is maybe something that I've realised talking to you three is one of the reasons that I asked you three to be on this podcast is I think you're all amazing. I think you're so successful and just really great people as well. And so, I was like, "If they're feeling burnt out too." I think there's this idea of to be successful, you have to be managing everything and be hitting everything. But actually, I've just realised if the three of you are also a bit burnt out, but are in my eyes extremely successful, the two things aren't maybe as related as I thought they were. So maybe we can still be successful and maybe not be as burnt out as we are by dropping a few things. I'm scared, I'm scared to say drop a few things.

Dr Ian Harrison:

In the last six months I've actively made those choices of saying no to stuff. And it's really helpful.

Dr Fiona McLean:

What have you said no to? I want to know.

Dr Ian Harrison:

It's really empowering when you do it. So, I was involved in one of the CDT doctoral training teams that I'm involved in that's administered at UCL. So, I was involved in shortlisting the applications and interviewing candidates. So last year there was 188 CVs to go through. And it got divided up, so each panel member had to review half of them, and you have to give each one of them a score based on the CV, their academic background, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they get shortlisted, and the top ones go for an interview. And then it was then asking questions in the interview panel. The interview panel itself takes three days and the shortlisting of them; you are giving these applications a few weeks in advance.

It just takes such a long time. Anyway, I did it last year and the opportunity came again and it's Selena Ray who organises it, and she approached me, and she said, "Could you do this again this year?" And I had to say, I was like, "You know what? I don't think this is going to be a good use of my time right now. Keep me on your list and please ask me it again next year. But right now, I just have too much that..." Yeah, it was great and then I got a lovely email back from her saying, "I really appreciate your honesty. Thanks, it is really good. We should be championing things like this. I'll keep you on my list." But it's really lovely to get a positive response from saying no to somebody rather than them being like [inaudible 00:53:26].

Dr Sarah Marzi:

She's great.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yes. Exactly. Rather than-

Dr Kate Harris:

Can you bring her to Newcastle, please?

Dr Ian Harrison:

Because you always think of that of saying no, of expecting the response back of being like, "Oh, okay, well we'd really hope that you would do this." And you'd get some resistance. But it's really nice to have it validated.

Dr Kate Harris:

Often you don't.

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yes.

Dr Kate Harris:

You're right. There are some lovely people at all our institutions who actually, if you do level and you are honest, they do really appreciate it. The thing I loved about how you handled that Ian was you said, "Please don't count me up forever. I want to be helpful. I just can't handle this right now." And I just think that's such a nice way. It might be useful, I guess for those wondering how to say no. That is a perfect example of how to do it so that you're not kicking off at anyone. And it's about recognising that challenge before you get so emotional that you might word it differently. I think. So, you clearly noticed it in advance of time and didn't just go, "No, I can't." And combust you were like, "I'm really sorry." And I just think that's really lovely.

Dr Fiona McLean:

We maybe move on to a little bit more of a summary here and the things I've... You see, I've got a pen out, you can't see it if you're listening to the podcast, but I've got a pen and I've been writing notes, which I don't usually do during the podcast recording because I just think there's some quite interesting strategies and themes that have come out of this. And I think one of the things is, yeah, mentorship I think is really important and mentorship out with your institute because sometimes you need someone who isn't within the system that you are in order to give you perspective, but also you do need mentorships within your own system because they understand it and how it works so they can help you be successful within it.

So, I think there's always space for two types of mentors, one within your environment and one out with. I think what I'm going to take from Ian saying no or not right now. And actually that is really important because we often say about learning to say no, but maybe actually learning to say not right now is better because yeah and you don't want to cut off opportunities for yourself in the future. So, I think actually that's really, really good. One thing that we maybe haven't talked about, but you hinted to Ian, was templates. So, as you go on and you write more papers, and more grants is actually keeping templates of maybe some sections. So, things like public engagement or data management, which are sections of grants that are now being required, keeping templates of those that you can use.

Dr Kate Harris:

That's a good idea.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes, and that'll take away some of the extra writing work that maybe is required.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Of everything Fiona, of job adverts that you write, everything.

Dr Kate Harris:

Wow.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Keep a template of everything basically.

Dr Kate Harris:

I'm not an organised woman. Can you tell?

Dr Fiona McLean:

You will be now.

Dr Kate Harris:

If you can make that change in me, I will thank you forever.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I think setting up boundaries as well. And actually, maybe just be more vocal to the people that you work with about maybe why you're saying no or not right now. So, these are the reasons why I've got to put focus into my students because they have thesis deadlines, or I've got animal work and I need to collect that data at a certain age. Or I've got a grant deadline and I really want to put in this grant and therefore I have to make that deadline. And I guess it's about prioritising as well, I don't think we've mentioned that word, but yes. What are your priorities? And then coming onto priorities is actually priorities not just within your workload but also in your life, your whole life because you only get one life.

Do you want to spend it burnt out the whole time? I don't. And also, that's not useful to my work environment as well. They want the best version of me, they don't want a burnout version of me. I think it's about having those hobbies, making sure you're being available for the people that matter in your life and just doing things that you love. Because at the end of the day, we all ended up here because we loved science and just a cycle background to what Ian said is you don't want that love to go because it sounds like you stop getting that dopamine hit. And we all love that dopamine hit when you discover something, or you see a bit of data and it makes you really excited and if you're not feeling-

Dr Kate Harris:

It's like a treat, isn't it?

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes. And if you're not feeling that, then there's something not right and that needs to be fixed.

Dr Kate Harris:

Is it okay if I add on to a couple of things you said?

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes of course.

Dr Kate Harris:

Because just literally just to expand, because you've mentioned so many really good things. I say the first one I was going to say is I always say that there's space for what I like to call a friendtor, like someone who you really admire as a person and who gives you a boost. I've got an incredible one at Newcastle called Lucy Usher.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I've got a friendtor, now you said it. Mine's not in science though.

Dr Kate Harris:

She's in a different field to me. But she's a person who I... And for me it's about acting with what I believe my level of integrity to be and producing that authenticity in my team. And she is not even closely related to my field. She's in the same faculty, but there's just something about her personality and the way we feel when we get together that it is a mentorship because she reminds me that you can be kind and accommodating and gentle, humble, and still be a professor. And I think that's special relationship. I always think there's space for a friendtorship, as I call it.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I love that.

Dr Kate Harris:

And I think having different mentors for different areas and not trying to completely fulfil what one mentor wants of you because otherwise you will combust.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes, absolutely.

Dr Kate Harris:

It links to finding your tribe. What I've started doing that really helped, if this does help people, I know I've said I'm burnt out, but I'm definitely coming out of it, I think, is finding your tribe. And what I mean by that is when I'm feeling very, very pressured, I go and there are people throughout the university, some are in people services, some are in different faculties, some are people I just meet in the cafe who just bring this, I call it energy net-zero, like this sort of more positive energy that can just take a load off. I did it this morning where I was with one of the lovely managers from my fellowship scheme. We just worked in the same space as each other and we just were, and it was just lovely. So, on added is that actually finding those people who always make you feel good when you're feeling rubbish, really helped.

Dr Fiona McLean:

And I think also what you're saying about spaces, like good spaces to work in, I think that's where retreats can be really good, writing retreats where you actually dedicate time to getting a task done that you need to get done. I could really use our writing retreat for paper writing because papers are the one thing that can sometimes feel like they can be allowed to be delayed because you can submit a paper anytime, and that is my bugbear at the moment. It haunts me in my brain. I'm like, "I still need to go on and publish."

Dr Kate Harris:

Because then they're still there. And then you're like, it gets harder the longer you leave it, then you've got to get your head back in the zone. And then if you've got ten projects on at one go, you're like, "I don't even remember what this is about."

Dr Fiona McLean:

So that's where another strategy is actually dedicated time and finding some charities, some of the funding charities run writing retreats or different types of retreats sounds, but also within your school, you can always check if there's, and some, I know that the School of Medicine of Dundee. We've been discussing it and it's something I hope they definitely do.

Dr Kate Harris:

And the other one-

Dr Fiona McLean:

But we have to.

Dr Kate Harris:

Sorry.

Dr Fiona McLean:

No, on you go.

Dr Kate Harris:

I was going to say, the other one I was going to say is that you pulled out this really nice example and so did Sarah of things that you have found that help. And that's an example of where activities that bring your energy back out. So, you were saying public engagement, that's something for you, and it's also what I like about it is related to what you do. So, you've found an aspect of your job that brings you motivation. So actually, finding something.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Absolutely.

Dr Kate Harris:

Do you know what I mean? And Ian, do you have something that no matter what, when you do it makes you feel a bit better?

Dr Ian Harrison:

Yes. Swimming, yes.

Dr Kate Harris:

To me it's data.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Actually, I think something that we've not talked on but is also physical exercise as well. I think physical exercise, I actually think singing can be very physical and because you're really getting your lungs moving. But for me, I mean I actually took up badminton at the end of my PhD. I wanted to hit something really hard, but I didn't want to get in trouble. And tennis, the ball just kept going too far. So, my friend was like, "You ever played badminton?" I was like, "Nope." So, I kept up.

Dr Kate Harris:

Do it squash, the ball comes back.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Well, sometimes in badminton if you're playing against good people, it comes back.

Dr Kate Harris:

I have a yoga mat in my office for this purpose.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Oh, there's the yoga mat. Yes see. And honestly, badminton was one of the best things I ever did. I still play it every Friday and I love it. And I also recently took up netball as well, maybe a bit last year. And that is a bunch of women in Dundee. Quite angry, sometimes slightly aggressive game.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Have you tried basketball? That's even better.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I've not tried basketball. I love netball though because it's a team game. It's a team game. You've got to pass a ball. But those things for me have been amazing, really good for my mental health, and really good for meeting new people/ really good for meeting new people that don't know about your job and stuff and give you escapism so that when you turn up, you don't need to talk about everything that's happened at work because sometimes when you go home you get asked, "Oh, how was work?" And you're like, "Oh, awful." And then you have to relive it.

So sometimes it's nice just to go into spaces where people, they don't know what's going on and you can just be like, "Well, let's just hit this shuttle and throw this ball and sing and do yoga and whatever else it is that makes you feel good about yourself." But we have to come to the end of our podcast or as I'm calling it, my free therapy session. So, before we go, I just have one last question for everybody, which I'd like you to have a go at answering. And that's just what is one single piece of advice you can give to any researcher listening that might have been affected by some of the issues that we've talked about today that could help them? And let's start with Sarah.

Dr Sarah Marzi:

Okay. I'm going to bring in one point that's been sitting at the back of my head throughout the whole session that I meant to bring up. I think peer networks, friends that are in similar situations as you, throughout my whole academic career have been so crucial. And this is also what this is to some extent today. This is how we met Fiona when we were all [inaudible 01:04:26] programme. We just really clicked and then with Dane as well about our experience in science. And it can normalise things. And I love the anecdotes you've given today, and I agree most of the time when you do set boundaries or you say no, you have positive experiences, not always. And when you don't, it's very helpful to have friends in similar situations who can empathise, and you can just have some peer therapy together.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yep, absolutely. No, I love that. Absolutely. I love my networks. I think I've met the most wonderful people through science. And shout out to Dane who we did meet. Dane actually was maybe going to come and do this podcast, but guess what? He's too busy, so it's a problem across academia.

Dr Ian Harrison:

He said, "No."

Dr Fiona McLean:

He said, "No, no." And Dane set himself a boundary and he said no to me. And do you know what? I absolutely understood, and there you go. There's a perfect example of it'd be absolutely okay to say no. Kate, what's your one piece of advice for any researcher listening?

Dr Kate Harris:

Be kind to yourself.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Be kind. Yeah, I need to take that away. I need to be a bit.

Dr Kate Harris:

Yes. So, my suggestion for you, Fiona, and for everybody is why don't you try and sit down and think of three things, that I'll give you in the past year. I know that obviously it can be really hard to think of things under pressure but think of three times in the past year that you were really proud of yourself. And it can be tiny. It can be saying no, it can be having a direct conversation, it can be getting some great data, just there's good, it's just we're not in the habit of searching for it.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yeah, I love that. Thank you, Kate. And Ian, what's your piece of advice?

Dr Ian Harrison:

That was lovely, Kate and I completely agree about the being kind to yourself. I would say setting boundaries is good and giving yourself limits as to what you know you can achieve and what you can't achieve, but normalising that as well. So, if it's like we were talking about earlier, say you needed to work outside of hours, so you need to do a bit of work in the evening. That's okay, as long as you are okay. Don't beat yourself up from having to do extra work in the evening. As long as you are doing all right and you are mentally okay, then all good.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I like that too. So good.

Dr Kate Harris:

What about you, Fiona?

Dr Fiona McLean:

What's my piece of advice? I think maybe it's about success and what success looks like and maybe readjusting what my own success is. Maybe I am quite successful. Got to sit and talk about it. I know, I think also we can look from the outside at people's careers and think that they have just shot to success, but you really don't know the ups and downs that it's taken to get there. And I think actually if you speak to most people, it's not being linear. It's probably been very up and down. And I think just realising that everyone's human, we've all got stuff going on in our lives beyond what we see at work and just appreciating that and appreciating when people do turn up and they are doing their best and just sometimes realising that that's actually enough and seeing that.

Dr Kate Harris:

And your best differs every day.

Dr Fiona McLean:

The best does differ every day. And just remembering to enjoy life though as well. We should all enjoy our lives and-

Dr Kate Harris:

So sweet.

Dr Fiona McLean:

Yes, absolutely. So, we have to wrap this up.

Dr Kate Harris:

Anyone doesn't want it to end. I'm finding it cathartic.

Dr Fiona McLean:

I know it is very cathartic. I hope everyone listening has found as cathartic as we have. But yes, I'm afraid that's all that we have time for today. If you can't get enough of this topic, you can visit the Dementia Researcher website where you'll find a full transcript, biographies on our guests, blogs, and other podcasts on this really important topic. Of course, I should add that Dementia Researcher is also here to help. We publish blogs, job listings, funding calls, and we have a whole host of resources that we hope can help you. In April, Dementia Researcher will also be launching a new communities app to bring people together because we know, as Sarah said, peer support can make all the difference. So, keep an eye on the website for updates and the website is dementiaresearcher.nihr.ac.uk. I would just like to take this moment to thank our incredible guest, Dr. Kate Harris, Dr. Sarah Marzi, and Dr. Ian Harrison. I'm Fiona McLean and you've been listening to the Dementia Researcher Podcast.

Everyone:

Bye.

Voice Over:

The Dementia Researcher podcast was brought to you by University College London with generous funding from the UK National Institute for Health Research, Alzheimer's Research UK, Alzheimer's Society, Alzheimer's Association, and Race Against Dementia. Please subscribe, leave as a review, and register on our website for full access to all our great resources. Dementiaresearcher.mihr.ac.uk.