Balancing Act – Professor Tammaryn Lashley

In this unrestricted, no-holds-barred interview Professor Tammaryn Lashley provides a candid and comprehensive picture of her day-to-today life as a working mother and academic. Starting with the decision to start a family, working through pregnancy, school days and beyond.

Back in 2018 Tammaryn was a guest on one of our very first podcasts, the topic was ‘Managing Family Life and a Research Career’. Tammaryn, along with Dr Jo Barnes and Dr Gemma Lace talked about their experiences as mothers and the balance acts, they have to pull off daily to be successful at work, and at home. Earlier this month they came together again, 5 years later to reflect on how things had changed over the years.

This interview is a follow-up to the podcast, adding details that we hope will inspire others, help deal with challenges and remain within research. We also interviewed Tammaryn’s husband Andrew, check out our podcast, The Hidden Support System, to hear his side of family life.

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Can you introduce yourself?

I’m Tammaryn Lashley, I’m 49 years old and I’m a Professor of Neuroscience at University College London (UCL). I work five to seven days a week, so at least 37.5 but usually more like 40 to 50. I’m married to Andy, he’s a self-employed architect, he also works long hours, but has a lot of flexibility and words around what the kids need, and it helps that he works from our home in Hertfordshire. Together we have three kids, the eldest girl is 22, then my son is 19 and my third is another daughter and she has just turned 15.

What stage were you at in your career when you decided to start a family?

I was a PhD student, well I was a Research Assistant, and I had just been funded to do my PhD part-time alongside my work. A month after being accepted I found out I was having my first child. It was a conscious decision, but it happened a little quicker than expected. I was 26 and my husband was 34 at the time.

I’d had a one-year contract, and then when my boss got a three-year project grant, and it allowed me to study for a part-time PhD. So, I knew that my job was relatively secure for the three years, and I was an employee, not just a student, but I didn’t have anything longer term after the three years. To cover maternity leave, we put through a no-cost extension. My second came more towards the end of my PhD and was much the same situation as my first.

For the third I was on my second postdoc project. That funded me for three years. It was around that time, that my supervisor Professor Revesz told me that he was planning to retire and wouldn’t be applying for any more grants. Which meant that if I wanted to stay in academia, then I would have to look for my own funding. I’d worked at UCL and in Brain Bank for so many years, it was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I going to do now? What could I do… All I do is look at brains and cut brains up. Literally, what am I going to do? I don’t have any other skill sets” and it’s quite limited to what you can do if that’s all you can do is cut brains up.

He gave me enough time and space to think, go and meet other people, talk to him about different research ideas to put forward as a junior fellowship. But I was also talking to my husband thinking, “Oh, is it time to jump ship now? Do I do something else?” And I thought, well, I don’t really want to be a professor or anything, that’s not my intention. I love just being in the lab. But as you know, the way academia’s set up, means you don’t have much choice. You have to keep progressing to get any more funding. So, I thought, “Okay, I’m going to give it a go”. So yeah, wrote the junior fellowship, got through to the interview, absolute felt my interview was the worst thing, worst day ever. Stuart Pickering-Brown was the chair of the panel and just made me feel relaxed. And then that was successful. I don’t think I’ve ever been so speechless in my entire life that it was successful.

So, I did my junior fellowship, Professor Revesz retired, and then it was back to, “Oh my god, what am I going to do now? I’ve got to apply for the senior one because there’s nothing else, nobody else is going to look out for me”. So applied for the senior one and then that was successful, too. Again, gob smacked that people thought my ideas were worthy of funding.

Can you describe the thought processes and emotions you went through when deciding?

I don’t think there was any. We always knew we wanted to have children, we always knew there was never a right time to have children, but it just happened a little bit quicker than I thought it was going to happen, to be honest. And then yeah, it was like, “#! @*&%,  #! @*&%,  #! @*&% what am I going to do?” So, we made it work. It was fine.

I think also because both me and my husband come from large families. Both our mums had their children relatively young as well, working full-time, fitting in work around the kids as well. We had that upbringing as you’ve just got to get on with it and do what you can to make what you want to work. So, I think you make your choices and then you have to see how you can fit in where you want to be and where you want to get to around the choices that you make. The choice around when to have each of the kids was never based around work.

Did you work throughout pregnancy? And did you take any time off during pregnancy?

So, as I mentioned earlier, I started my PhD just as I became pregnant and I just worked, and when I had my second 2 ½ years later, I was still hard at work on my PhD. My PhD took me six years to complete part-time.

I had my role doing all the diagnostic histology for Queen Square Brain Bank, and I studied alongside that and had to fit in everything. My boss was also my supervisor, and he was amazing. He still is amazing. He has retired, but will still share an office now, Professor Revesz, he was so understanding about having children and how important that was, and that came above everything.

This support continued, after I’d had the children, if they were ill from school, I left work, went to see to the children. He knew that I’d catch up on any work that I was missing, so yeah, he was very understanding in me having the children.

This was something I wanted, I loved work, I wanted a PhD, and I wanted children. I just had to be highly organised to be able to do all three roles whilst pregnant and having the kids as well.

With the first, with my eldest daughter, I took five months maternity leave, and I was in quite a privileged position, I would say, in that my mum had just sold the family business following the death of my father, and this meant that she was in a position to come down and look after my daughter four days a week. So, I didn’t have to pay childcare for the first 18 months, which was amazing.

For my third maternity leave I was on my second postdoc position I think, again at UCL. I took 9-10 months off with my third one. But things were a little bit more complicated with my little one because she’s having severe additional needs. So, we were in and out of Great Ormond Street, and have been ever since. So, it was a bit more challenging, but that’s where it helped having Andy (my husband) at home running his own business, we could be more flexible. He was able to take on a lion’s share of taking her to different hospital appointments and working around her needs. So that’s why I took a little bit more off with her.

Did your partner take time off to help?

Not really with the first, no. Not from the job that he had at the time, but it did instigate him setting up his own business because his practice wasn’t very understanding. As an example, I remember that my oldest daughter was born on a Sunday and work still expected him to fly up to Scotland the next day to do meetings about two pubs he was designing. So, it was at that point he decided, to set up his own business. Him having his own business helped when it came to my second and third.

Did you keep in touch with work during maternity leave?

I did bits and pieces. If papers needed finishing, etc. Because of my third little one’s needs, it was trickier to work. She has a chromosome deletion, so we were trying to figure out what was causing the problems and it was a bit of a hectic time from a personal point of view. It was also difficult as we still had to think of the other two, managing school etc. So, I did what I could just to keep my brain active, but I didn’t work as much as the first two maternity leaves.

How did you negotiate returning after childbirth?

As I look back at it, it was relatively easy. I don’t remember any problems. I think because I was employed as staff and my PhD was part-time, I was governed by the staff rules, not any student rules and regulations, I don’t know whether that’s beneficial, but they’re a lot stricter obviously for staff than they are students. So yeah, everything seemed to work fine, the project was put on hold. I continued to write my PhD whilst on maternity leave, so it wasn’t losing too much time from that point of view.

What support systems did you rely on with your day-to-day responsibilities as a mother and scientist?

My mum was around for about 18 months to help after my first, Eden, and then we transitioned my oldest into nursery. With my second, my son Ethan, he went straight into nursery at seven months and joined his younger sister. I think there was a bit of apprehension on my part about putting your child into a nursery when they were so young. But knowing Eden was there helped, and Ethan practically came out running, bless him, he would walk at 10 months. So, I didn’t really have any qualms about sending him to nursery. He was a lot bigger and a lot stronger, and the oldest one was already there. So yeah, he went at seven months.

If my husband had to be away there wasn’t much flexibility. As they got older, I’d continue to draft in mum, draft in other friends or family members. But I don’t think that’s any different to any other job, is it really? Having that support network there was really important. My husbands from Barbados, and his family live there, so we didn’t have their help. My mum lived in the Midlands, but she would drive down if I called frantically, “Oh mum, can you come down for a couple of days?” Then she’d be off in her car, bless her, coming down to help out with the kids.

What does a typical day look like for you?

My husband works from home, so he would, and continues do school or nursery drop off and pick, Monday to Friday. Working in London meant I wasn’t really able to do the drop-offs. Pickups, I would have to do occasionally if he was out at meetings. So, I would leave work about 4:00, run like hell to King’s Cross to get the train back to pick them up before it shuts at 6:00.

So, a normal day starts the evening before with me organising everything. So, all their bags for school were ready, lunches were made ready to go for the following day. I wake up at 6:00 and leave the house by 7.00 to catch the train at 7.30. I’d leave everything in piles ready for my husband, literally, just to pick up and go. I’d wake the kids up before I went and got their breakfast. They get ready in their uniforms if we’re talking about school age. If not, I would dress them for nursery. Husband wakes up, he gets his breakfast, he takes them to nursery for eight o’clock or drops them off at school, he’ll come back home to work. By that time, I’m already in London, hard at work. Anything the kids need through the day; he will sort out. So, any forgotten bags for sports kit, he would drop off at school.

Then I come home, get home back 6:30, cook dinner, or if I’ve been really organised, I would have made something the night before, so I just have to heat it up in the microwave. And then repeat….

On my Friday work from home day, I wake up really early, do a few hours work in the morning, see to the kids. Then after school, work while they were watching a movie or doing homework, I’ll go back to work, and the same again when they’ve gone to bed. So, juggling my hours around the needs of the kids.

I do also sometimes work at the weekend. When they were younger, I would fit in a few more hours when they were napping. I wouldn’t feel guilty if I hadn’t done stuff, but I probably did work more hours than I needed to, but you just wanted to make up what you thought you needed to for being able to get home.

Really, my husband and I just pass the baton backwards and forwards. We’ve got shared calendars so we can see when one of us is in, when one’s out, when one’s out the country or whatever (although he does moan at me, that I don’t keep it up to date enough). We try and be organised that way. It was challenging when the older two were younger, but obviously now, they’re a lot older, they can step and actually help if one of us isn’t around.

How about a social life?

I don’t really have one of those…

How did you cope financially?

During maternity I’m not sure what support there would have been to give me a wage if I’d been a full-time student. For my first child, I had 18 weeks full pay and then took some holiday. With the second one, I think the rules had changed slightly and I got the choice of 18 weeks full pay or nine weeks full pay, 18 weeks half pay.

When the first two were at nursery and I was an RA, I would be writing checks to pay for the nursery and not even earning off to cover the cost of the nursery. So, I sat down with Professor Revesz, and we decided that for me to be able to continue, I needed to work one day a week at home, so I didn’t have to send the kids to nursery on a Friday, and this has been the case ever since.

I guess everybody’s situation is different, but I don’t think money would have stopped me having children. I think I would’ve found a way around. If I couldn’t have afforded it, I probably would’ve taken the statutory pay.

Did you ever consider changing jobs? Perhaps something less stressful?

No, never. What I do, I think it’s more of a vocation than a job, to be honest. But definitely through the PhD and the postdoc years, I never felt that I wanted to leave. Now, it’s a different question I guess, but no, the projects were always exciting to find out new things that nobody had ever seen before. I was always keen to get back to work after maternity leave, and never wanted to do anything else.

Are there any specific strategies you found that help you be productive?

I think that the best advice I give, to any postdocs or PhD students that are going through starting or managing a family, and it took me a long time to learn (and if my husband ever listens to this, he will laugh), is that there’s more than one way to do something. So, on days that he was in charge of the kids, you’d come home, and things hadn’t been done the way I wanted them to be done, but A, they were all still alive. B, they were all fed, and C, they were all happy. So, there’s more than one way, and learn to be flexible. I think people sometimes stress too much on the correct way to do things when there isn’t a correct way. As long as the kids are happy, as long as you are fine, you’re all fed, then everything’s right with the world.

How did things change as your children got older?

It didn’t necessarily get easier. There was a four-and-a-half-year gap between our second and third. And although you’ve done it twice before, when a little one like ours came along with all her extra needs, everything just went out of the window. I’ve lost count of the number of operations, general anaesthetics, hospital appointments we’ve had with her, everything just went pear-shaped from that point of view. But I guess having the older two, you know what the routines are, you know what developmental milestones they should all reach. I mean, clearly, the little one wasn’t reaching those. So, it’s been a tough time for her, negotiating everything with her medical needs, and her educational needs.

We had to fight the local authority for the school placement and that was challenging. But I’d say it’s brought us closer together as a family. Seeing her challenges day in, day out, as she tries and tries with everything, and gives everything 100% effort. But she just loves life and I think that’s washed off onto all of us really, no matter what life throws at you, you can still enjoy everything. So, I think the challenges that came from her condition, lifted all of us.

Did your colleagues ever judge you for your choices?

I don’t think I faced any criticism from colleagues. The only thing I would say about work and having the kids is that you fall off the radar. If there are any extracurricular social events, you fall off those lists very quickly by constantly saying, “I can’t because I’ve got to go home for the kids” so eventually people stop asking you. That doesn’t bother me, to be honest. I’d rather be home with the kids anyway.

I have definitely faced criticism from other mums at the school. So, my only day for drop off and pickup was a Friday, my work from home day. And I remember once filling in a form for a school trip and putting Andy’s number down as the emergency contact. And one mum saying, “How could you do that? You are you the mother?”. And I’m like, “Yeah, but he’s literally around the corner working at home, so why am I not going to put his number? Like it’s any of your business anyway”. So, comments like that were quite regular from mums that had the ability to stay at home. But that’s never what I wanted and really wasn’t financially viable.

Do you ever feel like you have missed out on time with the children?

No, not really. Yeah, I mean, there’s obviously things I couldn’t go to at schools, like their school shows or Christmas things at school, nativity plays and things like that. But if I wasn’t there, my husband was there and if neither of us could go, my mum would go. So, there would always be somebody in the audience for the kids. And I have to say, do I feel like I missed out on them? Not really. I mean, I would go to as many as I could go to and juggle things around. So, if it meant going into work later and working a bit later, I would do that. So, if they had a show say that started at 9:30, then I’d do that work later.

Can you share any experience where your role as a mother and scientist have intersected?

I would go into the school and talk to the class about dementia or what I do as a scientist or what we can do as scientists. I’ve done that at the various schools that the kids have been at. I don’t think my job has affected them. When it comes to PTA or parents evening, I never say anything about my job, when you start talking about postmortem brains… people just moved away and never come back to talk to you.

As the kids have got older and they’re trying to find their own way in the world. My oldest has finished her undergrad degree in human biosciences and is working as a teaching assistant, and my youngest daughter’s school.

My other two are finding it harder to decide what to do. My husband and I have only done the one job, and I think for them, they’re frightened of making a mistake in case they don’t like they choose, not helped by us as role models. So, we talk to them all the time, explaining that its unusual that we have only ever done one thing, and it’s okay for them to try different things, and eventually find what they love.

Me and my husband are chalk and cheese. He’s arty and I am just not. And I guess from a homework point of view, it worked well because we just split it. I help with science and maths, and he helps with English and everything else.

How many hours of sleep do you get?

I was having this conversation with my older two the other night, and they say I just fall asleep on the sofa all the time. I don’t think I do, but I usually go to bed about 11:00, after 11:00, and then up, usually awake before my alarm goes off about 6:00-ish. But I’m a morning person, so I’m one of those annoying people that’s saying it’s like morning ping, I’m awake, let’s go on with the day. Whereas my husband’s definitely a night owl, he could just literally work all night. So, I guess we complement each other that way, too.

Do you ever feel guilty that work or family don’t get enough of your time?

I guess now, no. I’ve just learned to stop worrying, what’s the point? You’re either going to be at home with the kids or be at work, and it is the same for everyone, academia isn’t special. I try to keep my head to be wherever I am, but in the background, I’m still thinking what’s for dinner. Have they got what they need for sports clubs? And then when I’m at home, I’m focused on the kids, but constantly thinking this grant’s got to go in, that paper’s going to go in. So, my subconscious is thinking about the other one whilst I’m present in the one form, I guess. So no, but guilt, I don’t. I probably did in the earlier years, but now, it’s just not worth feeling guilty.

Have you ever turned down a career opportunity due to having a family?

I wouldn’t say I turned down opportunities because of the kids. When they were little, I got to go to a conference in Hawaii, and stayed for two weeks. And again, I drafted my mum in to help with Andy with the kids. I’m lucky, where I work is really an amazing place and where else could I find 3000 post-mortem brains? Even in my academic work, I couldn’t really move because the brains are at UCL. So, from that point of view, I haven’t even looked. I’ve spent over 20 years characterising these particular brains. If I move somewhere else, I’d have to start all over again.

How do you stay motivated?

Having to pay the mortgage is a good motivator! I need a job, whether it was this one or another one, this just happens to be a job that I like doing. So, if I can work hard and stay doing the job that I like, whether I wanted to progress to professor is another question around academia itself. I think it’s ludicrous. You have to do this to stay in academia, to be honest. But I would’ve been quite happy just being a postdoc in the lab, running all the experiments.

Has staying in one place given you a sense of security?

I’ve had my own share of the emails and the letters with funding ending, redundancy warnings and things like that. But I guess being in the one place for so long, you build up academic relationships, and lots of my colleagues at work are good friends now, and maybe you do get a sense of support.

The period where Professor Revez retired was the period that was the most unknown for me. And I did have a wobble, spoke to my husband, “What am I going to do if I don’t get that job?” But I guess we both are just quite grounded in a way that, well, I’ll just have to go out and get a job in Tesco or something to pay the mortgage. It’s not the end of the world. I’ve worked hard in this job, something else will turn up. And in the interim, I’ll do something else to pay what I need to pay.

What advice would you give to your younger self?

Decide what you want… What’s important to you in life, decide what you want to do and don’t let work get in the way. Academia’s my job and it pays a mortgage, but if tomorrow, I had to go and find another job, then I have to go and find another job.

I think between a couple of my grants, I had a week where I was either going to carry on or I was out of a job waiting to hear about a project grant. So, there are hairy times when you think, “Oh, I’m going to have to make a change”, but I really don’t see that academia is any different to any other career, to be honest. And I think maybe having my family and my husband helped keep me grounded. My mum managed with her four children would go out and work around the kids, I guess that’s been instilled in those of us from larger families.

My priority is my kids and my husband. And the benefits I get out of work, I guess both mentally and being able to progress the science, is a bonus for me, but I think my priority will always be my family. So, if you do want a family, don’t let work stop you, everything will work out around it. I mean, I’m not saying it’s easy because it’s not.

I’m doing a job that I love, but it’s not the be-all and end-all to my life.